Someone Spotting Your Firearm While Carrying Concealed

[fdegree]

There was a topic discussed, regarding open carrying and your rights when stopped by a police officer...here is a link to that thread:
Your thoughts please

This got me thinking...
Suppose you are carrying concealed...you reach for something, and your shirt rides up...someone accidentally sees your firearm, and calls 911 to report a man with a gun.  Is this reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS), which would require you to comply with the officers requests?  Or, is there no reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS), which means you do not have to comply with the officers requests?

I have my thoughts on this, but I'm not sure my way of thinking is correct.  I don't want my thoughts to influence anyone, so I'll hold off on posting them until after others chime in with their views.

[Cbmarine]

Here's the DelCode http://delcode.delaware.gov/title11/c019/sc01/index.shtml. There is a lot of MWAG (man with a gun) discussion and an excellent brochure on www.deloc.org. If stopped, be polite. Make a note on the officer's name and organization. Take the opportunity to make a positive impression with the officer. Key points bolded.
§ 1902 Questioning and detaining suspects.

(a) A peace officer may stop any person abroad, or in a public place, who the officer has reasonable ground to suspect is committing, has committed or is about to commit a crime, and may demand the person's name, address, business abroad and destination.

(b) Any person so questioned who fails to give identification or explain the person's actions to the satisfaction of the officer may be detained and further questioned and investigated.

(c) The total period of detention provided for by this section shall not exceed 2 hours. The detention is not an arrest and shall not be recorded as an arrest in any official record. At the end of the detention the person so detained shall be released or be arrested and charged with a crime.

Code 1935, § 5343-B; 48 Del. Laws, c. 304; 11 Del. C. 1953, § 1902; 56 Del. Laws, c. 152, § 1; 70 Del. Laws, c. 186, § 1.;

§ 1903 Searching questioned person for weapon.

A peace officer may search for a dangerous weapon any person whom the officer has stopped or detained to question as provided in § 1902 of this title, whenever the officer has reasonable ground to believe that the officer is in danger if the person possesses a dangerous weapon. If the officer finds a weapon, the officer may take and keep it until the completion of the questioning, when the officer shall either return it or arrest the person. The arrest may be for the illegal possession of the weapon.

Code 1935, § 5343C; 48 Del. Laws, c. 304; 11 Del. C. 1953, § 1903; 70 Del. Laws, c. 186, § 1.;

[jstgsn]

Hmmmm.   Well I can explain how we used to do it.  (we being the cops)  Someone calls in to say there is a man with a gun, and provides a description.  Lets presume it is not of someone loitering on a known drug corner wearing jeans around his knees, a white t-shirt 8 times to big for him, and 10 pounds of gold jewelry, and that the caller described a person who isn't doing anything suspicious, but they noticed a gun under his shirt.  In uniform, we would approach the gentleman or gentlelady and excuse ourselves but explain that someone reported they had a firearm.  (Rest assured, during this time, they are very closely watching your hands.)  Ideally the person would respond by saying "yes sir, I have a permit for the weapon."  The officer may ask to hold the weapon while you produce your identification and permit."  Everything checks out and everyone goes home.  
HOWEVER
There are many other scenarios.  
The suspected gun carrier tells the officer about "his rights" and refused to comply.  = face full of sidewalk and drummed up charges (such as resisting or disorderly conduct)..
The officer may have had a fight with his wife, Sgt. partner, (or he could be an ahole). and he grabs the gun carrier, face full of sidewalk, and drummed up charges (such as resisting or disorderly conduct).
Or the officer may be a rookie and he draws down on the gun carrier and acts a fool.  God only knows what happens next.
Or the officer is really nice about it, polite, and finds too late the person had just murdered his wife and wants to "die by cop".  

My suggestion is when approached by an officer, be polite, no sudden moves, and even if you believe he is wrong, go along with it.  Afterwards you can make a complaint and anything else you want to do.   A confrontation on the street rarely ends up well.  
What was that old show?  "You bet your life."  (or in this case "You bet your RAS".)

[oldgraygeek]

My suggestion is when approached by an officer, be polite, no sudden moves, and even if you believe he is wrong, go along with it.  Afterwards you can make a complaint and anything else you want to do.   A confrontation on the street rarely ends up well.

A-men!
As the token liberal on the site, some might expect me to put up an argument... but I'm an ex-cabbie, and I've been taught how to behave by police officers.
Hands in plain sight, officer's name is "Sir" or "Ma'am," don't lie, and I always get to drive or walk away (so far, anyway)...

[fdegree]

Now that there are a few postings, I will post my thoughts.  Please correct anything that is not quite right.

Since concealed carry is illegal, unless you have a permit, the officer has RAS.  Therefore, polite and respectful compliance with the officer would be the recommended course of action.  After the permit to carry, and ID, are verified, you should be on your way.  Relatively painless.

[Adrenolin]

As it was explained to me, regardless of the permit, they can still detain you for up to 2 hours. Its going to depend on the officer, your attitude and any other issues at that moment. As has been said.. Yes Sir, No Sir, be Polite & Provide 100% Truthful answers and explanations. If you run into an officer whose had a bad day/week (or is just an ahole) and who doesn't agree that regular residents should have or carry firearms then be prepared as he could keep you there for 2 hours. Its not hard for a LEO to make/think up an excuse for this if they want to.

I had a somewhat 'in passing' with an officer last month outside the local post office. My son and I had come out after a 20 second in/out dropoff and I had secured him in his back seat. As I sat in the truck I withdrew my sidearm from the center console, holstered it and went to start the truck. Ack! Hello officer! He was walking by heading into the PO and happened to look in just as I holstered my sidearm from the center console and stopped. When I noticed him I must have turned white as a ghost cause he started laughing.. which in turn calmed me somewhat. Turned out to actually be a nice couple minutes. He asked for my permit which I provided along with my drivers license.. AFTER I notified him that my wallet was in my rear right pocket and my firearm was of course holstered IWB right side. He gave them a single seconds passing glance and passed them back. I managed to smile and we chatted for about 3-4 minutes causally. Not a single question you'd have thought was asked.. mostly BS stuff 2 people just meeting would ask. How old is your son and a few related questions. Commented on my truck as he had the same one but was getting rid of it. Asked what type of sidearm I carried, if I shot regularly, at any specific ranges. I asked what his views were on CCDW and he said more people should carry and knew many cops with similar views but also knew of a few who were simply 100% against it.

As he was leaving to go into the PO I outright asked that since we weren't able to carry inside if there was anything different I should have done. He stated no and that it was simply a funny moment in his opinion. He had seen me laughing and tossing my son up in the air playing a bit as we walked to the truck. No bad vibes sorta thing. Still, I've since made the double look around before holstering. As 'fun' as it was I don't want a repeat! I'm usually pretty aware of my surroundings but this just happened to be timed right.. or wrong, depending on how you look at it.

[Obleo]

It would likely help some if, in Dover, you could show your city open carry permit from Dover PD. In the event you are no longer concealed you will still, technically, be in compliance.

[mrjam2jab]

Hmmmm.   Well I can explain how we used to do it.  (we being the cops)  Someone calls in to say there is a man with a gun, and provides a description.  Lets presume it is not of someone loitering on a known drug corner wearing jeans around his knees, a white t-shirt 8 times to big for him, and 10 pounds of gold jewelry, and that the caller described a person who isn't doing anything suspicious, but they noticed a gun under his shirt.  In uniform, we would approach the gentleman or gentlelady and excuse ourselves but explain that someone reported they had a firearm.

Why?  If there is nothing suspicious and no signs of a crime why can't said LEO just observe the carrier and make the judgement call that there is "nothing to see here" and move along? 

Now that there are a few postings, I will post my thoughts.  Please correct anything that is not quite right.

Since concealed carry is illegal, unless you have a permit, the officer has RAS.  Therefore, polite and respectful compliance with the officer would be the recommended course of action.  After the permit to carry, and ID, are verified, you should be on your way.  Relatively painless.

Which brings up the age-old comparison of...it's illegal to drive a vehicle without a license but LEO can't pull you over just to see if you have a drivers license. 

[JOET]

As it was explained to me, regardless of the permit, they can still detain you for up to 2 hours. Its going to depend on the officer, your attitude and any other issues at that moment. As has been said.. Yes Sir, No Sir, be Polite & Provide 100% Truthful answers and explanations. If you run into an officer whose had a bad day/week (or is just an ahole) and who doesn't agree that regular residents should have or carry firearms then be prepared as he could keep you there for 2 hours. Its not hard for a LEO to make/think up an excuse for this if they want to.

I had a somewhat 'in passing' with an officer last month outside the local post office. My son and I had come out after a 20 second in/out dropoff and I had secured him in his back seat. As I sat in the truck I withdrew my sidearm from the center console, holstered it and went to start the truck. Ack! Hello officer! He was walking by heading into the PO and happened to look in just as I holstered my sidearm from the center console and stopped. When I noticed him I must have turned white as a ghost cause he started laughing.. which in turn calmed me somewhat. Turned out to actually be a nice couple minutes. He asked for my permit which I provided along with my drivers license.. AFTER I notified him that my wallet was in my rear right pocket and my firearm was of course holstered IWB right side. He gave them a single seconds passing glance and passed them back. I managed to smile and we chatted for about 3-4 minutes causally. Not a single question you'd have thought was asked.. mostly BS stuff 2 people just meeting would ask. How old is your son and a few related questions. Commented on my truck as he had the same one but was getting rid of it. Asked what type of sidearm I carried, if I shot regularly, at any specific ranges. I asked what his views were on CCDW and he said more people should carry and knew many cops with similar views but also knew of a few who were simply 100% against it.

As he was leaving to go into the PO I outright asked that since we weren't able to carry inside if there was anything different I should have done. He stated no and that it was simply a funny moment in his opinion. He had seen me laughing and tossing my son up in the air playing a bit as we walked to the truck. No bad vibes sorta thing. Still, I've since made the double look around before holstering. As 'fun' as it was I don't want a repeat! I'm usually pretty aware of my surroundings but this just happened to be timed right.. or wrong, depending on how you look at it.

what did he do when you were going for your wallet??

[fdegree]

Now that there are a few postings, I will post my thoughts.  Please correct anything that is not quite right.

Since concealed carry is illegal, unless you have a permit, the officer has RAS.  Therefore, polite and respectful compliance with the officer would be the recommended course of action.  After the permit to carry, and ID, are verified, you should be on your way.  Relatively painless.

Which brings up the age-old comparison of...it's illegal to drive a vehicle without a license but LEO can't pull you over just to see if you have a drivers license. 

I understand what you are saying, but based on the scenario in the original post...someone calls 911 to report a crime.  Regardless if it is someone calling to report an unlicensed driver, or a concealed handgun carrier.  Would that be enough for the officer to have RAS?

[Adrenolin]

what did he do when you were going for your wallet??

The whole thing was really casual. The officer was truly decent and himself treated the entire thing with some humor. Imagine someone you met once 5-6 years ago and put that person in place of the officer. After the initial shock the whole thing was .. almost .. comfortable. One of the friendliest officers I've met who I hadn't already known.

As I said, I told him where my wallet was (without reaching for it) and he pretty much nodded saying it was ok. My left hand remained on my leg as I calmly reached for my wallet. I seem to remember him actually watching my son in the back seat as he was asking about the police car... Which I never did see.

I didn't do anything wrong. It was pulled straight up from the console, barrel downwards, moved 4-5 inches and down into my holster. The law requires I not enter the PO with a firearm so I did as anyone would and secured it in my vehicle. Once in the truck I then secured it on my person by holstering it. I'm not even sure he saw the firearm or simply recognized the movement of holstering a firearm. The look on my face certainly gave it away when I saw him there though.

If he had been an officer who didn't agree we should be permitted to carry I'm sure it could have gone differently.

[JOET]

adrenolin: thanks for the info, I was just curious of how it was handled.

[Adrenolin]

Pretty much everything with LEOs (who have any respect for us common folk) comes down to attitude, respect, politeness and truthfulness towards them. After the initial "oh sh|t" and the look on his face seeing my expression of seeing him.. Well things didn't stay tense to long. It was actually a bit comical really. Like WTH are the chances eh?