Author Topic: Robbers of Reading store shot dead  (Read 6937 times)

joek

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Newlife503

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Re: Robbers of Reading store shot dead
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2013, 10:30:41 AM »
For once it sounds like a news paper isn't considering a guy using a gun for self defense a criminal.
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Federal Firearm

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Re: Robbers of Reading store shot dead
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2013, 11:39:04 AM »
they chose the wrong store.....

Re: Robbers of Reading store shot dead
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2013, 12:06:46 AM »
Like one of the guys on Tv said ( he looked like father Christmas).

If you chose the behavior then you choose the consequences .
"We are all entitled to our own opinions, but we are not entitled to our own facts"

Hawkeye

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Re: Robbers of Reading store shot dead
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2013, 01:14:10 AM »
Not to dampen the party here but I have to say that I would not have confronted two men whom I knew to be armed when they were leaving the scene when no one was hurt in the store. I am glad the citizen is alright but there are so many ways that could have gone bad.

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Cbmarine

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Re: Robbers of Reading store shot dead
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2013, 01:56:49 AM »
The armed citizen was likely in a dilemma; his neighbor was being repeatedly robbed and, I surmise, that he decided to do something about it.  Unfortunately, his involvement led to a shootout which from the results, i.e., center of mass hits, it appears he was well prepared for.  Tough call but I would like to think that I would waited to get involved until deadly force was already in progress.
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Adrenolin

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Re: Robbers of Reading store shot dead
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2013, 04:06:28 PM »
All in all at the end of the day the store owner is alive, the armed resident is alive and 2 bad guys will not threaten, harm or steal from anyone again. The best thing, albeit surprising, is no charges are being brought up on the resident. He was obviously waiting and he forced the confrontation after they were leaving he store. 

Re: Robbers of Reading store shot dead
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2013, 04:40:00 PM »
All in all at the end of the day the store owner is alive, the armed resident is alive and 2 bad guys will not threaten, harm or steal from anyone again. The best thing, albeit surprising, is no charges are being brought up on the resident. He was obviously waiting and he forced the confrontation after they were leaving he store. 

It is also reasonable to deduce that there are two votes Hillary wont be getting in 2016 and when you think of the future crimes and tax dollars saved it is amazing. It is much better when victims fear consequences.
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ESPMan

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Re: Robbers of Reading store shot dead
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2013, 12:26:33 AM »
All in all at the end of the day the store owner is alive, the armed resident is alive and 2 bad guys will not threaten, harm or steal from anyone again. The best thing, albeit surprising, is no charges are being brought up on the resident. He was obviously waiting and he forced the confrontation after they were leaving he store. 

From what I read in other sources, they said he met them at the door and told them to stop and that he called the police. They then tried to draw on him, at which point he felt in mortal danger, and dropped them both. Now, if I understand correctly (and please, correct me if I'm wrong) because it was robbery at gunpoint, that puts others in mortal danger, at which point he is allowed to intervene (death, serious injury, unlawful sexual contact and kidnapping being the big four justifiers in Delaware, not just for self, but for others as well.) In any event, kudos to him.
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Adrenolin

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Re: Robbers of Reading store shot dead
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2013, 02:26:39 AM »
ESPMan.. I agree however they had left the front door and the situation had ended. If he hadn't approached them it would have been done with. By him walking up and confronting them he initiated their confrontation. Many people have been sentenced to prison for this in other areas of the country. He is very lucky.

I'm NOT in anyway defending the 2 who were shot! IMO they got what they deserved in the end and has saved the people 100s of thousands if they had been caught, prosecuted and sentenced to prison. Also, who knows what other laws they would have broken or who they might have killed the next time. Also as Silverbullet pointed out.. 2 less votes for the Devil's Queen in '16.

Hawkeye

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Re: Robbers of Reading store shot dead
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2013, 01:44:46 PM »
Hillarious (but sad) reaction of the family of one of the THUGS killed.
Quote
Families want justice for suspects killed after robbery of Krick's Korner store in Reading
Quote
READING, Pa. - Family members of the two masked men shot to death after allegedly robbing a store in Reading spoke out Tuesday.
"It's not fair," said Virginia Medina, mother of 24-year-old William Medina, who police said robbed Krick's Korner store alongside 18-year-old Robert De Carr on Monday.
The two men were shot and killed by a private citizen while leaving the store, and family members want to see charges pressed.
"[William] had no right to lose his life over something that man could have called the police for," said Medina. "He took the law into his own hands and walked away scot-free."
"How about if people just start running around here, policing the city on their own? How much worse is it going to get?" said Peter Ratel, Medina's cousin.
The family members said they are hurt by comments suggesting the alleged robbers were "thugs."
According to Medina, William was "no big hard criminal" and was rather a family-man who loved his young daughter.
Robert De Carr was described similarly by his sister, Taylor De Carr.
"My brother was a good kid," she told 69 News.

Apparently they want their family members to be free to rob and terrorize honest citizens without the fear of one of those citizens actually being able to defend themselves.  

What a wonderful representation of the "entitlement" mentality.

It seems the family is a little butthurt about not being able to sue the police department for a wrongful death had it been the local police that killed these to guys instead of an armed citizen. 

http://m.wfmz.com/families-want-justice-for-suspects-killed-after-robbery-of-kricks-korner-store-in-reading/-/15946050/22819374/-/vosp0z/-/index.html
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 01:58:23 PM by Hawkeye »

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Moosie

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Re: Robbers of Reading store shot dead
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2013, 03:56:33 PM »
"How about if people just start running around here, policing the city on their own? How much worse is it going to get?" said Peter Ratel, Medina's cousin.

BWAHAHAHAHAA   Ummm..  then there would be less crime you idiots.  The fact that the news is even covering their side of the story makes me sick.

We can all play arm chair quarter back what we would have done. Bottom line, it was a clean shooting. This is why it's so important to figure out BEFORE going out the door armed what you would do or at least what you think you would do when confronted in various situations. Perhaps this guy thought he'd simply stop his behavior by pulling out his gun and saying (in TV police fashion) "stop right there"...  they decided nope.. we're taking you out in which case they escalated the situation instead of just running out the door and he eliminated the threat. This all most likely happened in a matter of seconds. SECONDS folks.  Again, discuss it, mull it over, think about it before you're put in that situation.

How many have shot a pistol lying prone or on your side shooting under a low lying object? How about on your back? while seated in your car? There are many things that present themselves in the real world that most don't anticipate or practice for.

Someone said they would have waited to get involved until "deadly force was already in progress"...  deadly force in progress means someone's already been shot. What good is your concealed carry at that point? In this case, an innocent life would have already been taken if you waited. Food for thought.

Moosie
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Cbmarine

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Re: Robbers of Reading store shot dead
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2013, 10:42:55 PM »
An illumination of my comment "Tough call but I would like to think that I would waited to get involved until deadly force was already in progress."

The scenario that I am presupposing is inside the store rather than the actual scenario where the BGs tried to draw on the GG and they lost big time.

Per the newspaper account:
"According to police, the robbers entered Krick's Korner, pointed guns at the store owner and demanded cash. The robbers walked into the store with their handguns drawn, Adams said, and then proceeded to terrorize the store owner before stealing money, cigarettes and lottery tickets."

Now based on the recounting, would you engage with deadly force? Based on the wording extracted from the code below, you would be justified if you can convince the jury that what you believed was plausible.

11 Del C §466c. ...use of deadly force for the protection of property is justifiable only if the defendant believes that:

(2) The person against whom the deadly force is used is attempting to commit arson, burglary, robbery or felonious theft or property destruction and

a. Had employed or threatened deadly force against or in the presence of the defendant


GZ's belief that he was in danger of being killed was aggressively assaulted by the prosecutors and by public opinion.  Remember, though you may think you are being tried by a court of justice, you are in fact being tried in a court of of law that is mightily swayed by public opinion. Consider the consequences when protecting property.  Hence, my remark "deadly force in progress". Once the BG launches a bullet at the third person, you can then be sure the BG is not a kid with a toy replica gun.

Comments?

-----------------------


11 Del C § 466. Justification -- Use of force for the protection of property.

(a) The use of force upon or toward the person of another is justifiable when the defendant believes that such force is immediately necessary:

(1) To prevent the commission of criminal trespass or burglary in a building or upon real property in the defendant's possession or in the possession of another person for whose protection the defendant acts; or

(2) To prevent entry upon real property in the defendant's possession or in the possession of another person for whose protection the defendant acts; or

(3) To prevent theft, criminal mischief or any trespassory taking of tangible, movable property in the defendant's possession or in the possession of another person for whose protection the defendant acts.

(b) The defendant may in the circumstances named in subsection (a) of this section use such force as the defendant believes is necessary to protect the threatened property, provided that the defendant first requests the person against whom force is used to desist from interference with the property, unless the defendant believes that:

(1) Such a request would be useless; or

(2) It would be dangerous to the defendant or another person to make the request; or

(3) Substantial harm would be done to the physical condition of the property which is sought to be protected before the request could effectively be made.

(c) The use of deadly force for the protection of property is justifiable only if the defendant believes that:

(1) The person against whom the force is used is attempting to dispossess the defendant of the defendant's dwelling otherwise than under a claim of right to its possession; or

(2) The person against whom the deadly force is used is attempting to commit arson, burglary, robbery or felonious theft or property destruction and either:

a. Had employed or threatened deadly force against or in the presence of the defendant; or

b. Under the circumstances existing at the time, the defendant believed the use of force other than deadly force would expose the defendant, or another person in the defendant's presence, to the reasonable likelihood of serious physical injury.
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ESPMan

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Re: Robbers of Reading store shot dead
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2013, 12:24:57 AM »
I think what saved him was he didn't fire until they drew upon him. He didn't wantonly shoot them just because they were robbing a store, he gave them an opportunity to surrender. However, he did initiate confrontation with them, but they did threaten the store owner, so was he right to step in, or should he have let them go? The way I see it, if they both coincidentally "met at the door" and he was drawn upon, then yes, I would shoot too. But I believe the article said he watched the crime happen and intervened afterward (correct if I'm wrong.) From what I was taught, and from what I hear from DSP, its better to let property go, because you can replace it. That being said, I think any one of us would intervene in an armed robbery if we were given the chance. I only say this because of this statement:

11 Del C § 466. Justification -- Use of force for the protection of property.

(2) The person against whom the deadly force is used is attempting to commit arson, burglary, robbery or felonious theft or property destruction and either:

a. Had employed or threatened deadly force against or in the presence of the defendant; or

b. Under the circumstances existing at the time, the defendant believed the use of force other than deadly force would expose the defendant, or another person in the defendant's presence, to the reasonable likelihood of serious physical injury.

I think it would be reasonable, given they threatened the store owner, that they would have shot anyone that would have otherwise resisted them.

Just my thoughts, I could be wrong.

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Cbmarine

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Re: Robbers of Reading store shot dead
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2013, 01:38:34 AM »
...
 From what I was taught, and from what I hear from DSP, its better to let property go, because you can replace it. That being said, I think any one of us would intervene in an armed robbery if we were given the chance. I only say this because of this statement:

11 Del C § 466. Justification -- Use of force for the protection of property.

(2) The person against whom the deadly force is used is attempting to commit arson, burglary, robbery or felonious theft or property destruction and either:

a. Had employed or threatened deadly force against or in the presence of the defendant; or

b. Under the circumstances existing at the time, the defendant believed the use of force other than deadly force would expose the defendant, or another person in the defendant's presence, to the reasonable likelihood of serious physical injury.

I think it would be reasonable, given they threatened the store owner, that they would have shot anyone that would have otherwise resisted them.

Just my thoughts, I could be wrong.

My point is that what is observed and believed in the heat of the moment may not withstand a court challenge since the old adage what's fair is fair no longer applies.  Prosecutors prosecute whom they wish; case in point AG Eric Holder.  I'll let someone else compile that list. Today the perp is the victim and we are the BGs.  However, my rhetoric may be just that; in extremis, the good samaritan persona would probably prevail. 
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 01:40:58 AM by Cbmarine »
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