Delaware Concealed Carry Forum
CCW Methods & Issues => No Carry Locations => Topic started by: lfcmendes on March 02, 2009, 01:37:05 AM
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Lets say you are carrying on a no carry location, not on locations prohibited by law, but locations where it is business's policy like the Christiana mall, TGI's,... Is there any legal issues? Can you loose your license? Or you are just asked to leave?
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It depends on the place. Fridays for example could just ask you to leave and not make a big deal out of it. But I if the place wants to they can get the police involved and then I think you are ilegally carriyng and subject to what ever law the officer wants to charge you with.
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I have been researching for a little while now and the only thing I can come up with is:
§ 1457. Possession of a weapon in a Safe School and Recreation Zone; class D, E, or F: class A or B misdemeanor.
(a) Any person who commits any of the offenses described in subsection (b) of this section, or any juvenile who possesses a firearm or other deadly weapon, and does so while in or on a "Safe School and Recreation Zone" shall be guilty of the crime of possession of a weapon in a Safe School and Recreation Zone.
(b) The underlying offenses in Title 11 shall be:
(1) Section 1442. -- Carrying a concealed deadly weapon; class G felony; class E felony.
(2) Section 1444. -- Possessing a destructive weapon; class E felony.
(3) Section 1446. -- Unlawfully dealing with a switchblade knife; unclassified misdemeanor.
(4) Section 1448. -- Possession and purchase of deadly weapons by persons prohibited; class F felony.
(5) Section 1452. -- Unlawfully dealing with knuckles-combination knife; class B misdemeanor.
(6) Section 1453. -- Unlawfully dealing with martial arts throwing star; class B misdemeanor.
(c) For the purpose of this section, "Safe School and Recreation Zone" shall mean:
(1) Any building, structure, athletic field, sports stadium or real property owned, operated, leased or rented by any public or private school including, but not limited to, any kindergarten, elementary, secondary or vocational-technical school or any college or university, within 1,000 feet thereof; or
(2) Any motor vehicle owned, operated, leased or rented by any public or private school including, but not limited to, any kindergarten, elementary, secondary, or vocational-technical school or any college or university; or
(3) Any building or structure owned, operated, leased or rented by any county or municipality, or by the State, or by any board, agency, commission, department, corporation or other entity thereof, or by any private organization, which is utilized as a recreation center, athletic field or sports stadium.
(d) Nothing in this section shall be construed to preclude or otherwise limit a prosecution of or conviction for a violation of this chapter or any other provision of law. A person may be convicted both of the crime of possession of a weapon in a Safe School and Recreation Zone and of the underlying offense as defined elsewhere by the laws of the State.
(e) It shall not be a defense to a prosecution for a violation of this section that the person was unaware that the prohibited conduct took place on or in a Safe School and Recreation Zone.
(f) It shall be an affirmative defense to a prosecution for a violation of this section that the weapon was possessed pursuant to an authorized course of school instruction, or for the purpose of engaging in any school-authorized sporting or recreational activity. The affirmative defense established in this section shall be proved by a preponderance of the evidence. Nothing herein shall be construed to establish an affirmative defense with respect to a prosecution for any offense defined in any other section of this chapter.
(g) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution for a violation of this section that the prohibited conduct took place entirely within a private residence, and that no person under the age of 18 was present in such private residence at any time during the commission of the offense. The affirmative defense established in this section shall be proved by the defendant by a preponderance of the evidence. Nothing herein shall be construed to establish an affirmative defense with respect to a prosecution for an offense defined in any other section of this chapter.
(h) This section shall not apply to any law enforcement or police officer, or to any security officer as defined in Chapter 13 of Title 24.
(i) For purposes of this section only, "deadly weapon" shall include any object described in § 222(5) or (11) of this title or BB guns.
(j) The penalty for possession of a weapon in a Safe School and Recreation Zone shall be:
(1) If the underlying offense is a class B misdemeanor, the crime shall be a class A misdemeanor;
(2) If the underlying offense is an unclassified misdemeanor, the crime shall be a class B misdemeanor;
(3) If the underlying offense is a class E, F, or G felony, the crime shall be one grade higher than the underlying offense.
(4) In the event that an elementary or secondary school student possesses a firearm or other deadly weapon in a Safe School and Recreation Zone in addition to any other penalties contained in this section, the student shall be expelled by the local School Board or charter school board of directors for a period of not less than 180 days unless otherwise provided for in federal or state law.
( 70 Del. Laws, c. 213, § 1; 74 Del. Laws, c. 131, §§ 1-4; 76 Del. Laws, c. 326, § 1.; )
I'll get back with anything I find out.
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One thing Taurus, I believe the safe school zone is a federal law and if you are licensed to carry you are exempt from that. However reciprocity does not count.
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Just out of curiosity Gun Envy I was told during my class its still not a good idea to carry in or on school property. Does anyone know where we can find a definitive answer?
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I had seen a letter from the ATF to somebody online. i will try to find it tonight and post the link.
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Found it http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf (http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf)
Now I'm still looking to see if there is something in the Delaware code about it. Taurus, is that from DE code or federal code? Whether its a good idea or not, I say thats depends on how you feel. With the number of shootings that have occured in schools and churches I don't feel it's a bad idea.
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Delaware Code. I got it from the AG's website.
From all that I've read, I believe it to be legal to carry in a school as long as you are licensed, such as a CCW. However, I am still not sure yet.
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It depends on the place. Fridays for example could just ask you to leave and not make a big deal out of it. But I if the place wants to they can get the police involved and then I think you are ilegally carriyng and subject to what ever law the officer wants to charge you with.
Regarding a privately-owned place (like the Mall), if they ask you to leave, and you refuse to leave – that’s when you are trespassing. So, your actual (initial) charge would be trespassing, but that’s when the staff would start talking about your “threatening mannerisms” and “how [they] were scared that [you] were going to shoot them.” And then the add-on charges would start. Plain and simple, if they ask you to leave, pay your bill, and leave. Don’t get pissy, don’t make a scene, don’t tell them that their food sucks, don’t tell them that you won’t be coming back, don’t tell them about your 2nd Amendment right – just leave.
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Ok all, I got official word form the Delaware AG's office today. You are NOT aloowed to carry in a 'school zone' even if you have a CCW.
The exchange:
(Question) To whom it may concern,
I am writing to inquire if if it legal to carry a concealed weapon onto Delaware public school grounds if that person holds a CCW permit in Delaware.
Thanks, -----
(Response) No, A CCDW Permit does not allow an individual to carry in a school zone.
Robert Carmine
Director- Special Investigations
(302) 577-8946
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(Response) No, A CCDW Permit does not allow an individual to carry in a school zone.
Quite honestly, I really believe that he too-broadly responded to your direct question of “public school grounds” language.
Assuming that we are simply talking about the "school zone" issue (and thus sidestepping the "school property" issue), the relevant part of the statute reads “[a]ny person who commits any of the offenses described in subsection (b) of this section … and does so while in or on a "Safe School and Recreation Zone" shall be guilty of the crime of possession of a weapon in a Safe School and Recreation Zone.”
Since I am going to assume that you are not a person prohibited, and you’re not talking about carrying switchblades, destructive devices, or throwing stars -- the most likely underlying charge would be (b) (1) Section 1442 (Carrying a concealed deadly weapon).
§ 1442 reads “A person is guilty of carrying a concealed deadly weapon when the person carries concealed a deadly weapon upon or about the person without a license to do so as provided by § 1441 of this title.”
So, back to § 1457 (Possession of a weapon in a Safe School and Recreation Zone), you have to be committing an underlying offense (like carrying without a license), AND do so while in a Safe School and Recreation Zone. Without an underlying offense, though, the car doesn’t have any gas.
Now the bad part. Even if my above statement is correct, that doesn’t mean that you won’t get hassled, and that doesn’t mean that you won’t get charged. But that doesn’t mean that you are guilty.
Take it for whatever it’s worth…
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Disclaimer: I am NOT a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV....
But from what I understand, you can carry (CC or OC) in Delaware school zones so long as you don't break one of the other "underlying" laws. But that's only for Delaware State Law. You wouldn't be "busted" per State laws just for being in a school zone....
But on the other hand, it's still a FEDERAL law too, so you'd be breaking that one regardless. And they could (and probably would) charge you.... not a good thing.
As far as non-school zones (private property), all they can do is ask you to leave, and/or escort you to the door. And all the police could charge you with is trespassing anyway, which isn't license-revocable as far as I know.
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Yes Dave but the BATFE permits CC if you have a permit in that jurisdiction but reciprocity does not count. Now if your in Fridays eating dinner and while getting your wallet out to pay and the manager sees your gun can they prosecute? By law we can not CC in places that post a sign saying they don't permit it. Just wonderin
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I was hoping by now Taurus would have gotten a reply from the AG's office to clarify their first letter how ever they haven't replied.
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Ok, this is the situation, lets say you have you CCW license and you work within 1,000 feet from a safe school zone. You carry to work everyday but leave your weapon inside of your car. Are you violating any law?
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I would say no because your not on school property, it would be the same as if you live next to a school they cant keep you from owning a gun so I would say the same rule applies also welcome to the forum.
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gimmie, They may try to prosecute but they most likely will have no luck.
The bottom line is the AG's office can decide to prosecute anyone for anything. But when it is said and done with, the people are the one's you answer to. And many a jury would be hesitant to put someone away for something like that.
I wish I could tell you all with certainty but I can't. The AG's office won't even email me back with my previous question. (suprise, suprise)
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Can you carry while going into your bank?
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Yes as long as they don't have a sign stating otherwise
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Yes Dave but the BATFE permits CC if you have a permit in that jurisdiction but reciprocity does not count. Now if your in Fridays eating dinner and while getting your wallet out to pay and the manager sees your gun can they prosecute? By law we can not CC in places that post a sign saying they don't permit it. Just wonderin
can you please post that law for Delaware?
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A friend of mine works at the PDO. I told him about the sign at TGI Fridays. Here is the reply:
I talked to a few attorneys today and first they need to see or have you write exactly what the sing say. More important for any conviction the establishment has to be able to prove your state of mind at the time of the incident. They also must be able to prove that you read the sing because so many people just walk by the many signs on a door. Once they ask you to leave even though you have a concealed permit you have to leave. It just like you being in my house and I can set any rules I want and if I decide I will not allow anyone to enter my house with a weapon I can do so. Where is the restaurant?
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i hate to bump this issue and restate what CorBon said but looks like Mr. Robert Carmine the Director of Special Investigations for the AG office did not take a close look at the law. the the way i interpreted the law is
§ 1457. Possession of a weapon in a Safe School and Recreation Zone; class D, E, or F: class A or B misdemeanor.
(a) Any person who commits any of the offenses described in subsection (b) of this section, or any juvenile who possesses a firearm or other deadly weapon, and does so while in or on a "Safe School and Recreation Zone" shall be guilty of the crime of possession of a weapon in a Safe School and Recreation Zone.
(b) The underlying offenses in Title 11 shall be:
(1) Section 1442. -- Carrying a concealed deadly weapon; class G felony; class E felony.
(2) Section 1444. -- Possessing a destructive weapon; class E felony.
(3) Section 1446. -- Unlawfully dealing with a switchblade knife; unclassified misdemeanor.
(4) Section 1448. -- Possession and purchase of deadly weapons by persons prohibited; class F felony.
(5) Section 1452. -- Unlawfully dealing with knuckles-combination knife; class B misdemeanor.
(6) Section 1453. -- Unlawfully dealing with martial arts throwing star; class B misdemeanor.
So with a permit you are not in violation of section 1442, so you can't be guilty of the crime of possession of a weapon in a Safe School and Recreation Zone. Can someone write the AG office with the proper section of the Delaware code cited and ask for clarification. Because it looks like he either just skimmed that section or didn't even bother looking it up. Looks like another graduate of the Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Can't Read Good.
Also on the issue of the little no firearms allowed stickers or signs at Fridays, the mall, or the theater. I understand that i can be charged with trespassing if refusing to leave when asked to do so but do they carry any additional legal weight behind them.
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Rabbit I don't think the signs carry much weight at all other then giving the establishment a reason to ask you to leave if your carrying. As far as the AG's ofice if you email them please let us know what result you get.
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Rabbit I don't think the signs carry much weight at all other then giving the establishment a reason to ask you to leave if your carrying. As far as the AG's ofice if you email them please let us know what result you get.
+1 on the signs and no weight.
And.... Good luck getting the AG's office to put ANYTHING in writing.
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You may have better luck with the Dept of Justice rather than the Attorney General's office. When I e-mailed the AG about a residency question, the e-mail response I got (yes I got a response - pretty cool, huh?) was from an agent over at the DOJ, so obviously the e-mail had been forwarded. If we cut out the middle man (The AG), we may start having a little better odds of getting replies.
Boarder
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Yes Dave but the BATFE permits CC if you have a permit in that jurisdiction but reciprocity does not count. Now if your in Fridays eating dinner and while getting your wallet out to pay and the manager sees your gun can they prosecute? By law we can not CC in places that post a sign saying they don't permit it. Just wonderin
What i was told in my class if there is not a law against it you cant be charged with an infraction of the law...Suck as fridays, Delaware code does not have written in it anywhere that you cannot carry in Friday's, so I just ignore the signs and I carry IWB anyhow so no one will ever know! This applies to the Christiana mall too!
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My lawyer agrees:
If state law says you can't carry somewhere -- like on a school bus, or in a state park -- it's a crime to carry there.
If a sign on the door of a business says "no guns," all they can do is ask you to leave... which, of course, we would all do politely and promptly, right? (Since concealed means concealed, why would THAT ever happen)?
When I go to the Christiana Mall, I always enter through Macy's or J C Penney's. There are no signs at their entrances, or where you enter the mall from the anchor stores.
If the new Target puts up a "no guns" sign, then I guess they don't need my business.
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I don't think we will have anything to worry about with Target, I have heard they are very Pro 2A.
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I don't think we will have anything to worry about with Target, I have heard they are very Pro 2A.
Plus the store is named "Target" Its only appropriate to be able to carry in a stored named after a Bullseye and with a Giant Red one on the front of the store!!! HAHA
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It depends on the place. Fridays for example could just ask you to leave and not make a big deal out of it. But I if the place wants to they can get the police involved and then I think you are ilegally carriyng and subject to what ever law the officer wants to charge you with.
Question how in the world would eatery know you are carrying GUN you aren't going in with a sign on your chest saying I have a gun please help me understand. Living in Dover, DE
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I actually work in a public school in Delaware and I have my CCW and carry as regularly as my outfits allow. In my training class I was told it was "courteous" to inform the building principal and the School Resource Officer (SRO) of my permit and then to say nothing more about it. I've done this and both were completely fine with it. I understand the code to say that I'm within my legal rights to carry as long as I don't commit a felony or crime while doing so.
With school shootings, building intruders, etc. I feel much safer knowing I can protect myself if it ever comes to that (but fingers crossed it never will)!!!
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Lets say you are carrying on a no carry location, not on locations prohibited by law, but locations where it is business's policy like the Christiana mall, TGI's,... Is there any legal issues? Can you loose your license? Or you are just asked to leave?
Let's get back to the original question.
A "no guns allowed" sign does not have the force of law in Delaware. Unless you are at one of the locations where state law prohibits firearms all they can do is ask you to leave. If you don't leave you can be charged with trespassing.
Of course this does not mean that some uninformed employee or overzealous LEO won't overreact regardless of if you are in the right.
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Lets say you are carrying on a no carry location, not on locations prohibited by law, but locations where it is business's policy like the Christiana mall, TGI's,... Is there any legal issues? Can you loose your license? Or you are just asked to leave?
Let's get back to the original question.
A "no guns allowed" sign does not have the force of law in Delaware. Unless you are at one of the locations where state law prohibits firearms all they can do is ask you to leave. If you don't leave you can be charged with trespassing.
Of course this does not mean that some uninformed employee or overzealous LEO won't overreact regardless of if you are in the right.
Agreed
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I was thinking about this "no carry" location deal and decided to add to this thread, even thought it has been dormant for a while. I think that it should be mandatory for any building, business, office, or property, to have a clear visable sign prominently posted if there are no guns or weapons allowed. I mean any place. They don't have any problem putting "no smoking" or "no service without shirt or shoes", or"no parking" signs up. It seems some places have a "secret policy" about firearms. They don't post any policy, but if you are caught or suspected of carrying they want to make an issue of it.
I think the law should be, either post it or forget about it. No prominent visable sign, no foul.
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I was thinking about this "no carry" location deal and decided to add to this thread, even thought it has been dormant for a while. I think that it should be mandatory for any building, business, office, or property, to have a clear visable sign prominently posted if there are no guns or weapons allowed. I mean any place. They don't have any problem putting "no smoking" or "no service without shirt or shoes", or"no parking" signs up. It seems some places have a "secret policy" about firearms. They don't post any policy, but if you are caught or suspected of carrying they want to make an issue of it.
I think the law should be, either post it or forget about it. No prominent visable sign, no foul.
I agree... but I'm also glad this isn't the law here in Delaware.
CCDW permit holders fly almost completely under the radar here. Even businesses who prominently post "NO GUNS" signs in other states (e.g., Costco) don't bother posting such signs in Delaware because they don't even realize that we exist. The few signs that are posted don't have the force of law: even if there was a huge sign banning firearms in a store, all they could do is ask us to leave. My wife and I cheerfully ignore those sneaky little "secret policies" and we know we're not breaking the law.
Imagine what would happen if we tried to pass such a law, and the News-Urinal wrote up a huge front-page story, and it created a big public discussion... the Philly TV stations would pick it up, and stir up a hornet's nest.
The law would pass ...and we would suddenly be legally barred from -- and criminally liable for -- carrying in the mall, the movie theater, half the restaurants in the state, Costco, BJ's, ShopRite...
More and more places would become off-limits to us every day, as fast as they could print the signs.
Right now, there's a sneaky little "no guns" sign at the Regal cinema, and that almost invisible "Code of Conduct" at the Christiana Mall, and we have the right to carry at those places anyway.
If we tried to pass the law you propose -- which is a perfectly sensible and reasonable law, I agree -- it would only reduce our rights.
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I was thinking about this "no carry" location deal and decided to add to this thread, even thought it has been dormant for a while. I think that it should be mandatory for any building, business, office, or property, to have a clear visable sign prominently posted if there are no guns or weapons allowed. I mean any place. They don't have any problem putting "no smoking" or "no service without shirt or shoes", or"no parking" signs up. It seems some places have a "secret policy" about firearms. They don't post any policy, but if you are caught or suspected of carrying they want to make an issue of it.
I think the law should be, either post it or forget about it. No prominent visable sign, no foul.
I agree... but I'm also glad this isn't the law here in Delaware.
Imagine what would happen if we tried to pass such a law, and the News-Urinal wrote up a huge front-page story, and it created a big public discussion... the Philly TV stations would pick it up, and stir up a hornet's nest.
The law would pass ...and we would suddenly be legally barred from -- and criminally liable for -- carrying in the mall, the movie theater, half the restaurants in the state, Costco, BJ's, ShopRite...
More and more places would become off-limits to us every day, as fast as they could print the signs.
If we tried to pass the law you propose -- which is a perfectly sensible and reasonable law, I agree -- it would only reduce our rights.
Just adding to OGG's train of thought.
Regarding Delaware's gun laws -- less is way more. Any additional "clarification" would come with limitations that you hadn't even thought about. Have you ever seen that Texas handbook for concealed carry? That's exactly what we could wind up with, which is a patchwork of places that we now legally can't carry a weapon. What's your option -- leave it in the car? Great, now you're unarmed, and if someone steals your buggy or your weapon, you may eventually find yourself on the wrong end of a civil lawsuit because you left an unattended weapon accessible to anyone willing to steal/break into your car.
For liability, insurance, and general administrative purposes, most of these companies would not try to clarify who can legally carry at their locations. It's easier to say "no weapons allowed" than to say "no weapons allowed unless carried in a lawful manner by those that are permitted to carry the aforementioned weapons as prescribed and/or limited by any all all applicable federal, state, and local statutes, regulations, ordinances, or case law." Plus, with "no guns allowed" -- there's no inference that the company wants its patrons to be armed.
If people want to put up stickers and signs, fine -- I'm illiterate and failed Pictionary class. If they want to hire a clown to stand out there and tell me the same thing, fine -- I have selective hearing.
We're better off as is.
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The last time I was in Ohio- sometime last year, I was amazed to see how many businesses had "No Guns Allowed" signs- they accept our license, but you'd be doing a lot of switching out maneuvers to stay legal there. I'd surely hate to see Delaware go that way!! Pete D.---
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hey guys i seen like the Delaware state fair is a place you cant carry concealed but since i work for the state as a correctional officer and we are considered law enforcement can i carry there
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hey guys i seen like the Delaware state fair is a place you cant carry concealed but since i work for the state as a correctional officer and we are considered law enforcement can i carry there
You are going to have a hard time finding a definitive answer to this one. I have contacted the AG's office for clarification on some aspects of how a C/O's LEO status affects legally carrying a firearm in different situations and all they do is refer me back to DOC.
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You can be asked to leave and you could also be arrested for trespassing
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The whole purpose of Concealed carry, is just that...Concealed Carry, so they wont know anyhow as long as its done correctly!