Delaware Concealed Carry Forum
General Gun Discussion => Ammunition and Re-Loading => Topic started by: Sigarms12 on February 09, 2009, 11:40:04 PM
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I prefer 9mm Federal Hydra-shok 135 Grain low recoil. I seem to get very tight groups.
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I've always heard that you want a big bullet at a good velocity to really do damage. That why the 556 nato round seems to get so much flak, small bullet at high velocity goes right through without causing enough immediate damage. Here's a couple more interesting links on cartridge selection.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm (http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm)
http://www.thegunzone.com/strasbourg.html (http://www.thegunzone.com/strasbourg.html)
In the strasbourg tests they actually shot goats to test the effect of different caliber bullets.
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First let me say that I am not knocking any cailber. One of my most favorite guns is my Glock 17,I sold it and bought it back. I meant both and neither. What I should have added is that each bullet, how its loaded and the gun it's fired from form is its own animal. I've always read that you need a good balance of size and velocity to inflict fight stopping trauma. A 9mm and 380 acp pretty much are the same diameter bullet ( the 9 is .01 in larger) but the 9 is a better fight stopper due to its heavier bullet weight and higher velocity. And then comes into play the barrel length its fired from. I know with my prefered carry gun, 45auto, the 230 gr jhp is widely considered the top dog for the caliber out of a 5in bbl. But I've heard that from a 3 incher a 200 gr is better. I think you need a good balance of penetration and expansion to do the trick. As far as penetration is concerned check out, http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm (http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm) you'll see that the penetration can vary greatly from one bullet maker to the next even in the same bullet size. The 124 gr gold dot penetrates 19 inches through clothed gelatin more than many of the 147 grain bullets.But I've read that what happens with some of the smaller bullets( in the same caliber) is the hollow point fills up with clothing and the bullet never really expands and that some heavier bullets will not fill up so much and thus expand better.
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I prefer 9mm Federal Hydra-shok 135 Grain low recoil. I seem to get very tight groups.
That's not what your boyfriend says!
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I prefer 9mm Federal Hydra-shok 135 Grain low recoil. I seem to get very tight groups.
That's not what your boyfriend says!
Come on now we all know who wears the pants in your house and its not you. Plus last time I checked your the one that sleeps in the back of the bus face down @@@ up. Coincidence I THINK NOT!!!
Now back to more intelligent conversations I read some where that most modern day 9mm hollow points expand to the size of a 50 cal slug and that's what makes modern 9mm rounds more effective.
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My basic feeling is that every caliber has it's strong points and weak points. I carry an officers size 1911 because I shoot it the best. I can empty a magazine into a very nice grouping in no time at all. I've always felt that recoil is as much a product of the gun as it is the round. For instance a 1911 with a high grip gives most of felt recoil straight back into your arm rather than in muzzle flip. And I mean that weather the gun is chambered in 45, 40 or 9. My G19 to me seems to have more muzzle flip and therefore I have less control on follow up shots. I've always bought into that the 45 being so big and slow ( only about 900 fps on 230 gr) has an easier time breaking through bone and thick body mass and retaining its weight than that does the smaller cartridges. But thats not to say that it doesn't happen or that the smaller rounds won't get the job done. Look at the original 10 mm, at 1500 fps it could and would injure the person behind the intended target. That's why the FBI began using a lighter loading in it. From everything i've read LE agencies and the military does not use or stopped using the 45 due to magazine capacity more than everything else. In the same size gun you can fit 15 rounds of 9 compared to 8 in 45. Also the high cap 45's have such a large grip that they can't be held by all that would be on the job. And the military is currently looking to replace the Beretta with a larger bullet, but they also use FMJ and I don't think you'll find to many proponets of that. When alls said and done if you can't put the rounds on point than it doesn't matter if your shooting a 9, 40, 45 or 50 ae.
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I prefer the 115mm round. Though I can't seem to handle the recoil very well.
Seriously, I think it is just whatever you like to shoot. I like the 9mm and I like my 40 right now. I imagine if you shoot in the right spot, they're going down either way.
I need just enough to either stop the threat or get me the hell out of there.
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That is correct. Whatever you like to shoot, that is what you should carry. The discussion we are having has the purpose to be informative to new buyers on pros and cons of ammo we are currently carrying. You can pich in with info on what you carry and why you think it is a good carry for self-defense.
Seriously, I think it is just whatever you like to shoot. I like the 9mm and I like my 40 right now. I imagine if you shoot in the right spot, they're going down either way.
I need just enough to either stop the threat or get me the hell out of there.
I'm not that sure. There are 9mm's that have enough stopping power. I carry a .40 with hollowpoints. My friend carries a .45. To me, that's too big... to him, it's perfect. Different experts will tell you different things.
I honestly don't know. It's all about preference IMO.
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I feel that the .45acp is the best choice. Not only for the round (a 230gr hp) will do the job of stoping an inturder. And the big plus for the firearm is its weight and recoil absorption.
I you feel that is to much or the wife maybe can't rack the slide (mine can't). So the next best thing I feel is a .357mag. loaded with .38 rounds (158gr hp). That way she just has to point and shoot.
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Like I tell my wife about my 642, it's like an automatic camera, just point and shoot. The 357 125 gr is a great round. Suposedly something like a 97% one shot stop! Its ashame they can't some up with something that works that well in an auto. Pretty bad odds for the little crook who would.The 357 sig from what I hear get mixed reviews as to being equal with the magnum.
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DSP has had great results with the 357 sig. I believe theyhave had a few one shot stops. The only down side to the 357 sig is the high cost
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Ok as far as shot placement a 22 can stop someone and as far as no hollow point 9mm bulets they are the worst choice to use due to over penatration. Back in the 80's the NYPD had major issues with. Over penatraiton. As far as carry ammo never use 9mm ammo that is not hollow points or specialty ammo made for self defense.
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Taken from shooting times "Modern ammunition being what it is, there is much to be said for the 9mm, .40 S&W, and .357 SIG cartridges. And, certainly, the .45 GAP cartridge is beginning to make a name for itself. But I'm sure glad to see the gun companies humor us old geezers by including the .45 ACP in their lineups. In reality, the .45 ACP cartridge is the standard that all other autoloading cartridges are still compared to. That is simply because the .45 ACP works very well and is always an excellent choice for the defensive shooter, soldier, or policeman." And also http://www.neiassociates.org/caliber.htm (http://www.neiassociates.org/caliber.htm) pay special attention to the last paragraph.
Also, best advice I could give to the shooter it to begin reloading. Once you get the few needed tools the only cost is the components. Lowers your cost of ammo to pennies per round and you can make your practice ammo ballistically close to your carry ammo so you get even more use to the recoil of what you depend on. I've got 800 rounds of 45 in the safe and another 400 ready to be punched out and I don't have to wait till payday to go to the range.
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When considering what caliber to carry, you may want to try various brands of ammo in your caliber.
Some brands produce more muzzle flash than others, something to consider in low light situations.
All you need at night is a good flash to make you blind when trying to defend your life.
As for Caliber... I like the 45acp Remington Golden Sabre.
Statistics show most gun fights end after 6 shots, and are at a distance of less than 10 feet.
Your going to be in a high stress situation, adrenalin surging through your veins.
Not like target shooting at the range, so you wont have time to slow down and take carefull aim.
Most likely you will be shooting instintivly, and you will most likely miss with most of your shots.
Cops tend to miss as much as 80% of their shots in a defence situation.
So choose a caliber that will do the most damage when it hits during the 20%.
Also, choose something that will allow you to bring sites back into alignment faster after each shot.
Recoil will slow your reaction time and keep you from getting off as many rounds as you need in the time of the incident.
Practice makes perfect.
Practice drawing from your carry rig and shooting a shot instintively, so that it becomes a natural action.
You wont have time to think, only react. :o
Get to where you can feel (use the force luke) where the bullet is going, in case site picture is not possible. 8)
Practice shooting from the hip, you might only be able to just clear leather before needing to fire.
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Well said
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great point on the muzzle flash. people don't realize just how much flash there is when your shooting in a well lit range.
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I just got a box of Federal Tactical Bonded 124gr LE.
So did I.
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I was a solid .45 fan until i started trying to do daily carry with my 1911... all that steel and the larger frame made for a less than ideal situation, particularly on summer days when i was wearing fewer garments and moving around actively a lot more outside.
When i learned that a .40 has something on the order of 93% the same kenetic energy of a .45 (a fact i believe i picked up in Boston T. Party's Gun Bible) i almost immediately began looking at carry options in that vein.
For me it basically came down to an H&K or a Sig when i was considering a new purchase at one time. For all the hardcore fans on both sides of the whole "H&K Compact vs Sig P238/239" debate, it's often overlooked that these are dramatically similar guns. Appearances are deceiving, but they're almost equally thin in width (much of this has to do with the H&K having a checkerboard stack in the mag and not a full side-by-side as many people think... it really is as thin as the Sig) and weigh practically the same. It should, as with all firearm purchases, come down to how you personally feel when shooting the weapons... and for me, my buddy's H&K was far and away more comfortable than all the Sigs i could get my hands on.
NOTE - the main key point turned out to be the side controls on the Sig. the mag release lever is so very small and my thumb didn't get a solid feel on it at any time. The H&K release hits right n the money for me under any conditions. (And yes, i know that i should really work on training myself to use a gross movement during tactical reloads be slingshotting the slide as opposed to a discrete movement which can be a problem in a critical moment)
But, long story short i went with the H&K because i found one on gunbroker being sold for just $550 by a fellow near me in PA. Came with two mags, and holsters for them as well as the pistol itself. I simply couldn't pass up that deal.
So that's my primary carry piece now... an H&K USP Compact chambered in .40 with a spare mag in my pocket. I keep meaning to also get a 9mm barrel and some mags for it, as a sort of "world goes to hell" backup plan since you never know what sort of ammo might be available if inventories become scarce or disrupted.
(Oh, and my current carry ammo are Winchester Ranger SXTs)
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It's doesn't matter what you carry or what you put in it! It all comes down to shot placement ;)
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Aries,
Would you stop robbing me if I stung you with a rubber band or if I ripped half your torso out? Hmmm... I know you'll have to think about that one for a while, so I'm typing really slow (lol).
If you shot someone with a .25 and a great group, you'd better hope your aim when you throw the gun at the perp is REALLY good. Because you'v just managed to totally @@@@ him/her off. I think you could do more damage with a frozen pea in a straw.
On the other hand, if you managed to shoot him/her just once, depending on what type of ammo you have loaded, you could take a nice hunk out of their hide as it goes ripping through...
There are SO many different things to consider when trying to choose a calibre over another or one gun over another.
Deviant, sounds like you got a nice buy for your H&K.
Moosie
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I prefer the 357Sig or .45ACP but I will also carry my Sig P228 in 9mm with Speer Gold Dot ammo, but I truly believe 9mm is about as small as you would want to go for personal defense.
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I think what aries was getting at is that the largest caliber does no good if you miss. A 25 is a lousy defensive choice but if I put nine of them into the middle of your chest your gonna know it. Remember that news story from a few years ago in NYC... the cops shot at a guy something like 43 times with 9MM and he kept going! Of course they only hit him once or twice (I think).
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Would you stop robbing me if I stung you with a rubber band or if I ripped half your torso out? Hmmm... I know you'll have to think about that one for a while, so I'm typing really slow (lol).
Wow! Another Keyboard Warrior, same BS just a different forum.
I think what Aries was getting at is that the largest caliber does no good if you miss
No! I meant just what my post said, didn't say anything about "shot misses"
shot placement
But what do I know.......Enjoy the BS fellows ;D
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But what do I know.......Enjoy the BS fellows ;D
REALLY?????????????????????
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I stand corrected! Please accept my deepest appoligies for misunderstanding the exact meaning behind you post.
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It's doesn't matter what you carry or what you put in it! It all comes down to shot placement ;)
I disagree. I will agree that shot placement is critical but what type of round you carry is also important. A one shot stop is rare so I will not get into the "bigger is better" argument. Penetration is also very important. Sufficient penetration is necessary to incapacitate. Unless you hit the central nervous system or the brain there is a real chance the attacker can keep on coming at you for up to 14 seconds after a fatal wound has occurred. It can take that long for the loss of blood to take its toll. With slower or lighter rounds you may not get the penetration to be effective through thick outer clothing. Over penetration is also a factor because of the danger to bystanders. The round needs to be matched to the gun. Smaller guns may suffice for BUGs but not as a primary defensive weapon. I would not carry a .25 as my primary defensive weapon. Yes, it is better than nothing but that is about all you can say about it. The smallest I would use for my main carry gun will be either a 9mm or .38 special. I am still on the fence about .380.
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the main key point turned out to be the side controls on the Sig. the mag release lever is so very small
bah, when reviewing this thread i just noticed a typo i made. it's the slide release on the Sig that i'm not super happy with, particularly compared to the H&K.
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Aries, I'm just now getting around to replying. Unfortunately, this board is family oriented so I can't type what I'd love to say to you. However, I'm not a keyboard warrior, sport fan. I was making a joke that clearly went over your head.
Have a fantastic Christmas.
Moosie
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Deviant, I've never found the slide release on the sig to be a problem now the mag release tends to feel a little uncomfortable
when I use it. I do like HK's just can't get past the price for a polymer gun. Sigs used to be around $200 less then the HK about 10 years ago now there about the same.
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I still can't get used to the mag release on the HK guns. I'm sure I'd get used to it but it just really throws me.
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While shot placement is important, you still need to stop somebody. The best stats I've ever seen on a .22 LR taken from real experiences was a 1 in 4 chance of a one shot stop in the core of the body. Compare that at high 80% - Low 90% for the modern 9mm rounds and high 90 percentile range for the .40 and .45. I'll try to come up with where I found those numbers, my memory is a bit vague on me. I would be good with a round as small as the .380, some of the ballistics on the modern hollow-points seem to be outding anything I've ever seen out of a .38, including the +P rounds (assuming that the .38 is shot out of a 2" J-frame). But, something is better than nothing. Right now my wife is still intimidated by anything much larger than a .22, but we're working on that.
As a side note, the military is limited to the 9mm ball (full metal jacket) round by the Geneva conventions, and carry hollowpoints whenever we can (US soil, to include sate land overseas such as embassies). The complaints you see from downrange are using the ball round, which I would never use for self defense unless I had nothing else to shoot.
Cheers!
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Does the Geneva convention limit the military to 9mm or to FMJ? I remember seeing a couple years ago the military was kicking around the idea of replacing the M9 with a large cap large caliber pistol but they decided to stay with the Beretta.
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Geneva Convention limits us to FMJ ammo. The 9mm was chosen because NATO adopted it as their official round. It would be pretty tough to change the caliber now, just because it would be different from them. That being said, some of our 'Unique' units are using the SOCOM Mk23, which is a.45 version of the HK USP, with some additional features. I am sure there are some other calibers in use out there, but this is all I'm familiar with, and I don't want to blow smoke (unless of course, I'm having a good cigar).
A lot of the complaints with the 5.56 round are similar, due to the fact that it is both full metal jacket, and was designed for excessive penetration. There is a steel penetrator rod in the SS109 round that wIas designed to defeat soviet issued body armor of the time. I have not read any results from actual use of the 5.56 or the .223 in a hollowpoint and its effectiveness (doesn't stop me from having one at the house, I'd trust it with good ammo).
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I thought the ban was on hollow points but wasn't sure.
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I voted for .40 because thats what my gun shoots. However if I had the extra cash I would like to shoot 357 sig.. I feel that its a much more accurate round at longer distances and seems to have more power behind it. My groups seem to be much tighter with 357 compared to .40. It could be the gun though I have never shot 357 sig form a glock only from a sig sauer
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I like 9mm because I'm not nearly as accurate with my follow up shots in .40
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I never cared for the 40 too much muzzle flip for me. I prefer the 357sig. I don't find nearly as much muzzle flip with it. The only problem I have is I take a high grip and find the slide rubs my hand if I'm not careful.
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well im thinking of getting 2 more barrels for my g23. a 9mm and a 357. This way i can really find out which one I like best