Delaware Concealed Carry Forum
State News & Gun News => NRA & National Gun News => Topic started by: Condition 1 on October 08, 2014, 10:54:54 PM
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http://koin.com/2014/10/07/man-practicing-open-carry-law-robbed-of-gun/
Nice, another gun in some criminal's hands...way to go ::)
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Read that earlier today. What an genius. Zero training. Zero common sense.
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Read that earlier today. What an genius. Zero training. Zero common sense.
I don't know how much training or common sense can help with a gun pointed at you. People don't like to hear it but OC makes you a target. OCers fell good about their guns on their hip, political statements, etc. But here is the reality, again.
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This is only the second case I have heard of this happening. This was not a open carry breakdown, it was a situational awareness breakdown. The mere fact that you are openly carrying does not make you a hard target as some like to think. It is also about how you carry yourself and how aware you are of what is happening around you. I can only speak for myself but if a guy I do not know walks up to me at 2:00 in the morning my situational awareness color code level will go to orange real quick. Asking for a cigarette or to use your cell phone is one of the most used ploys for the BG to get close to his victim. I will automatically assume this guy has ill intentions and proceed accordingly. As Jeff Cooper would say:
In Condition Orange, you set a mental trigger: "If that person does 'x', I will need to stop them."
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Thats semantics. OC certainly can make you a target. This guy was a target. The guy standing in line at a convenience store with his sidearm out in full display is a target when someone walks in armed and sees it right away. Someone sees you with a holstered OC sidearm and they have their firearm out already as they advance, you're more than likely screwed. You are either dead, have your weapon taken (like this guy) or you're one very crazy individual if you attempt to draw, fire and come out ahead. Most of the folks I've seen walking around OCing wouldn't notice a raging bull in a china shop if they walked straight through the place. Situational awareness zero. One of the big arguments for OC is the fact they can draw quicker then from concealed. Sure, in the right situation but its useless when a weapon is already on you... because the bad guy saw your weapon.
I have no issues if someone wants to OC as its their right to do so, however saying it doesn't make them a target I'd disagree with. The bad guy obviously saw this guy's OC sidearm and targeted him specifically for it as there was no mention of any other items taken like his wallet or money. The guys lucky to be alive really.
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As usual I agree 100% with Adrenolin.
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Agree with Adrenolin 95%, only difference is I don't support OC. He is right on, a person with a gun visible is a target for criminals.
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Agree with Adrenolin 95%, only difference is I don't support OC. He is right on, a person with a gun visible is a target for criminals.
I want to be able to OC in CA (my state), because if the weather gets hot, I want to be able to remove my cover garment w/o losing my CCW permit (assuming we win the Peruta case and I can get a CCW for mere "self-defense"....).
Similarly, if the wind should blow open my jacket, or I bend/move and expose my CCW, I don't want to lose my permit.
I'd probably prefer to OC when jogging for protection against BGs and/or BDogs.
Last: If I'm out hiking/backpacking, I'd prefer OCing.
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I don't care if you carry open or concealed as long as you carry. I do both. The targeting of an open carrier during a robbery is not a valid argument. That goes along with the "shoot me first" vest myth you hear about. Studies with inmates have shown that when they see an open carrier they will USUALLY move on to another target. I think the reason this is a story is because it goes against the norm. That being said however, BG's are getting bolder and changing their tactics. We might see this happen more and more.
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Agree with Adrenolin 95%, only difference is I don't support OC. He is right on, a person with a gun visible is a target for criminals.
I want to be able to OC in CA (my state), because if the weather gets hot, I want to be able to remove my cover garment w/o losing my CCW permit (assuming we win the Peruta case and I can get a CCW for mere "self-defense"....).
Similarly, if the wind should blow open my jacket, or I bend/move and expose my CCW, I don't want to lose my permit.
I'd probably prefer to OC when jogging for protection against BGs and/or BDogs.
Last: If I'm out hiking/backpacking, I'd prefer OCing.
There is a distinction between OCing and your weapon being exposed because of the wind blowing your shirt, etc.
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I don't care if you carry open or concealed as long as you carry. I do both. The targeting of an open carrier during a robbery is not a valid argument. That goes along with the "shoot me first" vest myth you hear about. Studies with inmates have shown that when they see an open carrier they will USUALLY move on to another target. I think the reason this is a story is because it goes against the norm. That being said however, BG's are getting bolder and changing their tactics. We might see this happen more and more.
We just have to agree to disagree. I find the argument of being a target valid. Do you have source for the studies you mention?
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Do you have source for the studies you mention?
It is mentioned in one of my books. I will look for it when I get back into town Monday.
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I do not know if this is the same study I was referring to from a book I have but it says pretty much the same thing. While this study does not mention open carry specifically it does refer to the criminals knowing if their intended victim is armed.
Fifty-six percent of the felons surveyed agreed that "A criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun;" 74% agreed that "One reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot."
A 57% majority agreed that "Most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police." In asking felons what they personally thought about while committing crimes, 34% indicated that they thought about getting "shot at by police" or "shot by victim."
The data suggest that criminals may be a little more concerned about being caught by police and imprisoned than about being shot, but meeting the armed citizen clearly elicited fears of being shot. That deterrent effect of citizen gun ownership appeared in their responses to questions about actual encounters. Although 37% of those surveyed admitted that they personally had "run into a victim who was armed with a gun," that figure surpassed the 50% mark for armed criminals, an experience shared by 57% of the active gun predators. And 34% of the sample admitted to having been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim."
Significantly, almost 40% said there was at least one time when the criminal "decided not to do a crime because [he] knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun." Clearly, armed citizens represent a real threat to criminals, a threat with which large numbers are personally familiar, or familiar with through the shared experiences of their fellow outlaws.
http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/articles/2003/the-armed-criminal-in-america.aspx (http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/articles/2003/the-armed-criminal-in-america.aspx)
I am not trying to convince someone to open carry or to justify why I or others do it. It is my personal choice just as how you carry is your personal choice. As I said, as long as you carry.
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You have a nice car, they see it , and want to steel it.
You have expensive sneekers, they see it, and steel it,
Phone,
Jacket,
watch.
wow, tho, ballsy with the gun thing tho.
But when you flash, they want your cash.
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Hawkeye, I've seen that. Also there was a TV show reporting the same thing a while back. The reference though has nothing todo with OC but for houses they may think it is armed, etc. The argument is always the same, IMO. Someone OCing will most likely be a target for being shot first or taken their gun away during a criminal activity. I will grant if the criminal knows someone is carrying a gun and don't think they would have an element of surprise they would walk away, but this is also another argument as the good guy would need the element of surprise on his side.
Please don't take me wrong, as I know this doesn't apply to you. My view of OC is the majority (not all) being cowboys wanna be, in need of attention, etc. I would walk away from any pubic places (except gun stores, ranges, hiking, your own property, etc.) where people are OCing. I do think a great number of OCers have no firearm training. I would love DE had a cheaper, more accessible way for people to get their licenses.
I do not know if this is the same study I was referring to from a book I have but it says pretty much the same thing. While this study does not mention open carry specifically it does refer to the criminals knowing if their intended victim is armed.
Fifty-six percent of the felons surveyed agreed that "A criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun;" 74% agreed that "One reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot."
A 57% majority agreed that "Most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police." In asking felons what they personally thought about while committing crimes, 34% indicated that they thought about getting "shot at by police" or "shot by victim."
The data suggest that criminals may be a little more concerned about being caught by police and imprisoned than about being shot, but meeting the armed citizen clearly elicited fears of being shot. That deterrent effect of citizen gun ownership appeared in their responses to questions about actual encounters. Although 37% of those surveyed admitted that they personally had "run into a victim who was armed with a gun," that figure surpassed the 50% mark for armed criminals, an experience shared by 57% of the active gun predators. And 34% of the sample admitted to having been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim."
Significantly, almost 40% said there was at least one time when the criminal "decided not to do a crime because [he] knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun." Clearly, armed citizens represent a real threat to criminals, a threat with which large numbers are personally familiar, or familiar with through the shared experiences of their fellow outlaws.
http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/articles/2003/the-armed-criminal-in-america.aspx (http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/articles/2003/the-armed-criminal-in-america.aspx)
I am not trying to convince someone to open carry or to justify why I or others do it. It is my personal choice just as how you carry is your personal choice. As I said, as long as you carry.
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I agree with @Hawkeye's "situational awareness" comment which we all need to practice.
Here's an applicable exercise from Jeff Cooper's Principles of Personal Defense Alertness principle.
The great majority of the victims tims of violent crime are taken by surprise. The one who anticipates the action wins. The one who does not, loses. Learn from the experience of others and don't let yourself be surprised. Make it a game. Keep a chart. Every time anyone is able to approach you from behind without your knowledge, mark down an X. Every time you see anyone you know before he sees you, mark down an O. Keep the Os ahead of the Xs. A month with no Xs establishes the formation of correct habits.
And also
Two rules are immediately evident: Know what is behind you, and pay particular attention to anything out of place.
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Great post, and on this I agree with both of you. Situational awareness is of utmost importance, with or without carrying a weapon, during all activities, and at all times. Again, great post.
I agree with @Hawkeye's "situational awareness" comment which we all need to practice.
Here's an applicable exercise from Jeff Cooper's Principles of Personal Defense Alertness principle.
The great majority of the victims tims of violent crime are taken by surprise. The one who anticipates the action wins. The one who does not, loses. Learn from the experience of others and don't let yourself be surprised. Make it a game. Keep a chart. Every time anyone is able to approach you from behind without your knowledge, mark down an X. Every time you see anyone you know before he sees you, mark down an O. Keep the Os ahead of the Xs. A month with no Xs establishes the formation of correct habits.
And also
Two rules are immediately evident: Know what is behind you, and pay particular attention to anything out of place.
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Excellent thread. All very good comments. "Situational awareness" is the key point.
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Excellent thread. All very good comments. "Situational awareness" is the key point.
That's the bottom line. Knowing what's going on is 1st. Presence of mind is 2nd. Just as importantly knowing what to do is next.
I'll add that profiling is at the top of the list. Not a time for PC. If a well dressed person demonstrating courtesies wearing a visible sidearm walks into a restaurant I'm impressed. If anyone walks in with a rifle/shotgun that's trouble. Anyone with a weapon of any kind mouthing off is trouble.
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There is a distinction between OCing and your weapon being exposed because of the wind blowing your shirt, etc.
Norman v. State (FL) is the case of a law abiding concealed carry licensee who was arrested and prosecuted in Fort Pierce, FL for violating Florida nearly complete ban on Open Carry after his otherwise lawfully carried handgun unknowingly became unconcealed while walking down the street the first time he carried outside his home with his new Florida concealed carry license.
A St. Lucie County Judge denied all constitutional arguments to dismiss the case against Dale Norman. While the court made findings that the statute is overbroad and is facially vague, the court still issued a conviction on a “as applied” standard.
The County Court judge also did not fully consider the Second Amendment or the Right to Bear Arms under the Florida Constitution; denying those motions to dismiss the case because the question of the right to bear arms "is for someone above the level of this court."
From:
http://www.floridacarry.org/index.php/litigation-32/21-statecourt/70-norman-v-state
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There is a distinction between OCing and your weapon being exposed because of the wind blowing your shirt, etc.
Norman v. State (FL) is the case of a law abiding concealed carry licensee who was arrested and prosecuted in Fort Pierce, FL for violating Florida nearly complete ban on Open Carry after his otherwise lawfully carried handgun unknowingly became unconcealed while walking down the street the first time he carried outside his home with his new Florida concealed carry license.
A St. Lucie County Judge denied all constitutional arguments to dismiss the case against Dale Norman. While the court made findings that the statute is overbroad and is facially vague, the court still issued a conviction on a “as applied” standard.
The County Court judge also did not fully consider the Second Amendment or the Right to Bear Arms under the Florida Constitution; denying those motions to dismiss the case because the question of the right to bear arms "is for someone above the level of this court."
From:
http://www.floridacarry.org/index.php/litigation-32/21-statecourt/70-norman-v-state
This is interesting. The case is ongoing and will be heard by the 4th District Court of Appeals 0n Nov. 6, 2014. I think the lower court judge didn't want to make a controversial ruling and bounced it to the 4th DCA. I don't know when the ruling will come down but it bears watching.
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Stating the obvious. If you travel out of the state of DE, follow OGG's example and research the laws of the states you will visit, and carry a copy to show those who may be ill-informed. IIRC, handgunlaw.us (http://handgunlaw.us) is the gold standard.
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This is VERY interesting with direct impact to CCW holders. Good post, thanks for sharing.
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There is a distinction between OCing and your weapon being exposed because of the wind blowing your shirt, etc.
Norman v. State (FL) is the case of a law abiding concealed carry licensee who was arrested and prosecuted in Fort Pierce, FL for violating Florida nearly complete ban on Open Carry after his otherwise lawfully carried handgun unknowingly became unconcealed while walking down the street the first time he carried outside his home with his new Florida concealed carry license.
A St. Lucie County Judge denied all constitutional arguments to dismiss the case against Dale Norman. While the court made findings that the statute is overbroad and is facially vague, the court still issued a conviction on a “as applied” standard.
The County Court judge also did not fully consider the Second Amendment or the Right to Bear Arms under the Florida Constitution; denying those motions to dismiss the case because the question of the right to bear arms "is for someone above the level of this court."
From:
http://www.floridacarry.org/index.php/litigation-32/21-statecourt/70-norman-v-state
Oral arguments in this case are just about to begin in FL. If you are interested, you can watch live streaming at:
http://www.4dca.org/video.shtml
The briefs are at:
http://www.4dca.org/calendar/briefs/Nov%202014/11-06-14/11-06-14.shtml
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The Florida issue is a state issue. Not saying it's not interesting but their laws differ then here in Delaware. Here, we're protected by our laws if a concealed weapon is accidentally exposed by the wind, reaching up, etc. Some states don't allow for accidental exposure at all.
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What's a "Walter-brand P22............"???? Why do journalists with no interest or education about guns always seem to be the reporters on gun issues??? And the proof reader doesn't know either.
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The Florida issue is a state issue. Not saying it's not interesting but their laws differ then here in Delaware. ...
This is the National Gun News forum, so it belongs here.
fwiw, IIRC, if they lose at FL CA4 and FL SC, they said they'd seek cert. from SCOTUS. Again, that's national, but it would also be authoritative for DE.
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The Florida issue is a state issue. Not saying it's not interesting but their laws differ then here in Delaware. ...
This is the National Gun News forum, so it belongs here.
fwiw, IIRC, if they lose at FL CA4 and FL SC, they said they'd seek cert. from SCOTUS. Again, that's national, but it would also be authoritative for DE.
See below as the Delaware Supreme Court unanimously affirmed the fundemental right to open carry in Doe and Boone vs Wilmington Housing Authority.
"This case concerns the right to keep and bear arms under Article I, Section 20 of the Delaware Constitution. Although Section 20 was not enacted until 1987, Delaware has a long history, dating back to the Revolution, of allowing responsible citizens to lawfully carry and use firearms in our state. The parties agree, as does this Court, that Delaware is an “open carry” state. Like the citizens of our sister states at the founding, Delaware citizens understood that the “right of self-preservation” permitted a citizen to “repe[l] force by force”.
An individual’s right to bear arms was “understood to be an individual right protecting against public and private violence"
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The Florida issue is a state issue. Not saying it's not interesting but their laws differ then here in Delaware. ...
This is the National Gun News forum, so it belongs here.
fwiw, IIRC, if they lose at FL CA4 and FL SC, they said they'd seek cert. from SCOTUS. Again, that's national, but it would also be authoritative for DE.
See below as the Delaware Supreme Court unanimously affirmed the fundemental right to open carry in Doe and Boone vs Wilmington Housing Authority.
"This case concerns the right to keep and bear arms under Article I, Section 20 of the Delaware Constitution. Although Section 20 was not enacted until 1987, Delaware has a long history, dating back to the Revolution, of allowing responsible citizens to lawfully carry and use firearms in our state. The parties agree, as does this Court, that Delaware is an “open carry” state. Like the citizens of our sister states at the founding, Delaware citizens understood that the “right of self-preservation” permitted a citizen to “repe[l] force by force”.
An individual’s right to bear arms was “understood to be an individual right protecting against public and private violence"
(1) That's GREAT! It may help DEians to push for Shall Issue CCWs the way Ohio did about a decade ago....
(2) Whatever SCOTUS says on a subject trumps whatever a state SC says....