Delaware Concealed Carry Forum
CCW Methods & Issues => General CCW Discussion => Topic started by: czer on April 27, 2011, 01:38:13 AM
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Have you all seen the You Tube video from "nutnfancy" --- "Obligation to Carry"? He says that when we get our carry license, it is our OBLIGATION to carry at all times and act as a civilian "sheepdog", ready to protect others. Alot of what he says rings true with me. It certainly elevates my own motives for carry to a higher level - up from the selfish idea of carrying solely for personal safety. On the other hand, I am not sure I am ready for such a high responsibility. This is serious stuff. Check the video out and see what you think. http://www.youtube.com/user/nutnfancy#p/search/2/6gIHDHZf1TA
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Ok, haven't watched the video (it's already past my bedtime), I can tell you that I carry to protect ME, my FAMILY, and very few others.
Its a dark and stormy night.... ok, so its not stormy, but it is night and it is dark. you see a guy beating his old lady down and you think he's really going to kill her! You warn him to stop... he pounds even more and basically ignores that you're there. You draw down on him, warning him again, etc.... blah blah blah... you shoot him and kill him. You were sure without a reasonable doubt he was going to kill her if he punched her again (or hit her with a _______.). She ends up suing you because you just shot and killed her babies daddy and he was a good man, etc.
Nope... not going there. Well....never say never, but I would have to really think about this as a civilian with a carry permit.
Of course this doesn't encompass all scenarios and only gives certain details, but that's my two cents.
Moosie
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Alittle preachy but I agree with him. And he needs to stop referring to himself in the third person ;D
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Agreed. It is our duty to carry, if only because we can.
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Moosie, I see where you are coming from, since I am there myself. But what if some lunatic starts shooting at a crowded mall, or walks into the restaurant you are in? In other words, situations in which the general public is in imminent, obvious danger? Do we hide under the table and defend ourselves only if he walks right up to us? In cases where you may be called upon to defend someone else in a personal altercation, I agree, is very, very dicey. How do you judge when to intervene?
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Czer, I'd most definitely be in when it comes to something like that. I'm sorry if I gave that impression that I'd sit on the sidelines. I guess my thought is that I don't carry to protect "everyone" I carry to protect ME (and my family, etc).
Bleh.. I don't like when I can't get my point across on this here confounded internet LOL.
Moosie
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My biggest fear is lawsuits. I have read and watched some things that are crazy situations andmake you think about jumping in to something I'm not 100% sure of. If it's cut and dry then yes I'm in . But seeing someone getting beat on I will most likely call 911 and hope they get there quick.
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My thinking on this subject has evolved in the 18 months that I've been armed. At first I believed that I would defend anyone who needed defending. I now believe that I'm not the police and not trained to respond like the police. I've taken the responsibility to defend myself and my family. If none of us are in danger, I'm not likely to draw my weapon. Other people are responsible to defend themselves. If they choose to be unarmed, they have to accept the consequences. If I saw someone being beaten, I would react as I would if I were unarmed, ie call the police, try to distract the attacker etc. I would however be ready to draw my weapon if I then became the focus of the attacker. If I'm in a crowded restaurant and someone comes in to rob the place, they're going to get robbed. If someone comes in and starts shooting up the place, then I'll probably shoot back, AFTER I make sure my loved ones are out of the line of fire. It's a personal choice we all have to make. Whatever we all decide, we should think it through now. When something actually happens, we won't have time to think it through.
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I also would use the cell phone before the gun in most situations that involve other people. Im not overly concerned with the lawsuit issue because the way the world is now I could be sued for killing the person, not killing the person, calling the police and not using my weapon. (Sienfeld series finale) Not that the suit would have merit but Id still have to defend myself. Thru the fire service Ive seen the effect taking a persons life has on people whether it be by accident or on purpose and I dont want to go thru that over someone elses beatdown or a purse snatching.
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Sounds like a good movie plot. Mr. Citizen, who carries, minding his own business..someone comes into his restaurant (or school, theater, bus station, etc.) and for no apparent reason, starts shooting people in what looks like a mass shooting. Mr. Armed Citizen decides to escape by a back door with his wife and child. This half of the movie deals with the consequences of that move...what happens in the aftermath of the killings. Plus, reporters find out that Mr. Armed Citizen had a gun and might have made a difference...Next thing you know, the whole scene is repeating itself, (through movie magic) only this time, the armed citizen responds by shooting and killing the criminal, then this next half of the movie deals with the consequences of THAT move...complete with reporters finding out that Mr. Armed Citizen had talked about this whole thing on a internet chat room, there are charges of being a vigilanty, etc. I'd watch it.
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Here's hoping none of us ever have to "make the choice" for real! My wish is to be on my death bed (far into the future) wondering why in the world I bothered to carry a gun for all those years.
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If i were to find my self in a active shooter type situation or in a store/restraint being robbed i decided that my priority to leave in the most expeditious manner possible with my loved ones (family / girlfriend) and call 911 in the process. Although situation dictates i think at this point in time i will only use force if I or loved a loved one is directly confronted with a threat.
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I would have a really hard time walking away from an active shooter situation knowing I was armed and could have saved innocent lives...priority one would obviously be to get my wife and son safe, then do what I gotta do.... if my wife and child were in the mall one day, and some nut starts shooting the place up, I pray there is an armed citizen in there to take care of it. I guess I would have deal with the repercussions as they come. I can't see a jury putting it to you for saving other lives.....imho...ymmv....
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Great discussion. These are things I think about all the time- still not exactly sure what I would do in a given situation though. I only hope to be able to shoot straight under that much stress- man I'd hate to think an innocent would get hit by me! I just keep going to the range to practice, practice, practice. I still need to go more often! I think Nut'n has it right though- we carry it, we should be ready and able to use it correctly if needed- especially in an active shoot senario. I'd definately call the cops first if at all possible. I think we also need to discuss the proper things to do AFTER you pull it, and/ or shoot it, as well. Thanks for posting it Czer. See ya, Pete D.---
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PS: I'd watch that movie too Czer- you have a great imagination! You make it, and I'll buy it! Pete D.---
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One of the few things I've learned in life is that we never know what we might do until we've done it.
We all hope we never need to decide whether to draw our weapons in a crisis, but we can't rule it out; if we could, we wouldn't carry at all. We need to keep our options open.
For example, we might not be inclined to intervene in an robbery situation where we're not personally at much risk.
However, can we imagine passing up a clean shot at an armed robber... and then watching him shoot someone, knowing we could have prevented it?
We have a duty to be armed (because we can), to decide what to do (if anything) on the spot, and then to do it as well as we can.
Like it or not, if we find ourselves in the immediate vicinity of a violent crime, we may find a moral obligation to act. If so, we pray that we do it right, and then we pay our lawyers.
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I know it sound cold but if someone is on one side of the mall shooting up the place and I'm on the other I'm not going to be chasing the sound of gun fire. If I'm armed my priority is my loved one i cant ensure their safety if I'm running after a gunman. In a smaller environment like a restaurant by the act of drawing my firearm or even shooting at the bad guy i am potentially drawing fire In my direction and in all likelihood the other people I'm seated with friends family... But you cant really know how you would react in any give situation. I my be more likely to act if its a crazed gunman at an orphanage for disable children than if i was at Wawa and some person with born to lose tattooed across his chest is holding up the register, but that's just me.
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I think it's great to really think about what we MIGHT do now, in the safety of our homes (or offices) etc. There are a LOT of things we all think about and feel that we'd do or wouldn't do, etc. But as OGG said, we don't know what we'll actually do until (hopefully never) we are in that situation.
Good discussion guys!!
Moosie
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To follow this a little more, is there anyone on the forum who has had the misfortune to have to draw, or even use their weapon? How did your intentions compare to how you actually reacted?
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To follow this a little more, is there anyone on the forum who has had the misfortune to have to draw, or even use their weapon? How did your intentions compare to how you actually reacted?
I've come close: hand on the weapon, ready to fire.
My wife and I pulled up in a parking lot in Newark. She's afraid of dogs, and a woman was walking two huge unruly hounds past the front of our car. I said "Stay in the car," but it was too late: she opened the door and stepped out.
One of the dogs pulled free of its owner and charged, jumping up on her, barking and snapping. I came around the car, Safepacker open, hand on my Glock 29 & ready to draw and fire, yelling to the woman "Get your f***ing dog NOW! Get that motherf***er away from my wife!" She dropped the other dog's leash (more risk for us?) and managed to pull the dog away from my wife before it could bite her.
Now, I've already said "we don't know what we might do," but in this case I know what I was going to do: if & when that dog's teeth touched my wife, he was headed for Doggie Hell. I had a clean shot from the side, with nobody & nothing I cared about behind the dog. I came within five drops of dog spittle of drawing & killing that animal.
The best-case scenario resulted: nobody saw my gun, nobody got hurt... except that lady's feelings. Once she had the dog somewhat under her control, she started telling us we were overreacting, the dog wouldn't have hurt anyone, etc. Her words were cut off by the loud click of my Safepacker closing: she looked at it, apparently realizing what was in it, and then I looked her in the eyes and told her, "Lady, you'll never know how close you came... to not having a dog."
She turned white, and got the hell out of Dodge. So did we.
In hindsight, I was satisfied. I went from Condition Yellow (vaguely aware of ambient risk) to Condition Orange-Tinted-Red in less than a second... and managed to avoid firing the shot, and the police weren't called. My reflexes were good, I remained aware of my surroundings and the risk involved to people & things other than the attacker, and took command of the situation. I thank my trainers; they served me well.
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I walk almost every morning at 0530 for 1/2 to 1 hr. Last fall I noticed a older pickup drive by me going slow and because it was dark I couldn't see into the vehicle very well . The pickup went a few 100 yards up the street & made a u turn heading back in my direction & stopped with its lights pointing not at me but to the side slightly. I stopped walking and stood still for about 30 seconds. The pickup was about 150-200 feet from me now. So I made a logical move to me I pulled my glock 19-9 turned on the laser max pointed to the ground and waited . Almost instantly the pickup made a fast u turn took off. When you walk the same territory at the same time over a long period you become very familiarized with your surroundings, cars, people , etc. This pickup didn't fit in so I immediately became suspicious and feel I was about to become a victimized. I also do carry my weapon all the time when I'm out & don't even think about it anymore.
Alan
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Oldgreygeek, it's a common failing that dog owners think their dogs can do no wrong...and I have seen my normally super-friendly Golden Retriever act totally out of character and make a bee line to a "threatening" walker only to pull up at the last minute. But did I honestly know what my dog was going to do? Nope. And a Golden is a big dog, one good bite would be all it took....I would have done the same thing you did. Good thing the dog backed down. Have you had any kind of defensive training that prepared you somewhat?
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Czer,
I had three days of combat pistol training in 2005... and, decades ago, I had a much tougher guy try to beat me to death (and fail, miserably).
Other than that, I'm an amateur. ;)