Delaware Concealed Carry Forum
State News & Gun News => NRA & National Gun News => Topic started by: Rfscanner on July 22, 2011, 12:21:56 AM
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genius for a police officer. He should be fired!
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/you-fu-with-me-cop-threatens-concealed-carry-gun-owner-during-traffic-stop/
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I agree: fire that cop.
But...
When I've driven through Ohio, I've had the benefit of having read Ohio CCDW law on handgunlaw.us (and carrying a printed copy of the .PDF summary from the site), so I was prepared to comply with their requirements... which apparently include notifying any police officer you encounter, loudly, early and often, that you are carrying.
Guess he forgot about that.
Here in Delaware, where notification is not required, every policeman I know says you should notify them immediately if you are stopped; I certainly would.
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Can you have a cop arrested for terrorist threatening? At the very least he needs a psych eval.
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I agree: fire that cop.
But...
When I've driven through Ohio, I've had the benefit of having read Ohio CCDW law on handgunlaw.us (and carrying a printed copy of the .PDF summary from the site), so I was prepared to comply with their requirements... which apparently include notifying any police officer you encounter, loudly, early and often, that you are carrying.
Guess he forgot about that.
Here in Delaware, where notification is not required, every policeman I know says you should notify them immediately if you are stopped; I certainly would.
Agreed... The cop was a dick and went way overboard... On the other hand, the guy MIGHT (I say might because what he claims to have said is really inaudible) have tried to inform the officer, but he sure as hell could have made a much bigger effort. The whole time the officer was in the car searching the text claims that he didn't say anything then because he had been told to shut-up and that speaking could have caused things to go badly... Really? More badly than this? Again, that's not to excuse the cop... He was obviously a dick in the first place, and completely blew his top making things much worse, but like I said, this guy could have made a much better effort at informing, and I know in his position (Well frankly I don't think I'd ever end up in his position, LOL) I sure as hell would.
As far as Delaware, or I guess really about these laws... I'm kinda torn... I sort of see the purpose of them, but at the same time it just seems relatively moot to me... First off, if you're a law abiding citizen it's not like you're going to decide to draw a weapon on an officer of the law... On the other hand, if your a criminal, you're not going to inform! I think it's absolutely a good idea to do, but I see it as being for YOUR protection, not the officers... So the officer doesn't catch sight of it or a print and overreact. I think it's just common sense, but I certainly can't see any reason for a "law" requiring it... That just seems like a good way to give an "excuse" to arrest/detain innocent people.
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I have a hard time believing that while the one cop was crawling thru the back seat the driver was unable to anounce the presence of a weapon. While the officer was definately over the top and threatening, he had just pulled over what looked like and may have been a john and a hooker. I dont agree with him being threatened like he was but IMO he put himself in that position.
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The story claims that the guy tried twice to warn the officer about the concealed firearm but the officer shut him down both times. From the way the officer overreacts throughout the rest of the video that scenario is not entirely implausible.
Maybe the officer was in a bad mood because the donut shop ran out of the vanilla sprinkles. ::)
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I find it outrageous the way the officer disrespects the guy. Actually, from the beginning the officer shows no respect at all to any of the people involved.
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As far as Delaware, or I guess really about these laws... I'm kinda torn... I sort of see the purpose of them, but at the same time it just seems relatively moot to me... First off, if you're a law abiding citizen it's not like you're going to decide to draw a weapon on an officer of the law... On the other hand, if your a criminal, you're not going to inform! I think it's absolutely a good idea to do, but I see it as being for YOUR protection, not the officers... So the officer doesn't catch sight of it or a print and overreact. I think it's just common sense, but I certainly can't see any reason for a "law" requiring it... That just seems like a good way to give an "excuse" to arrest/detain innocent people.
If you're a criminal you're not required to notify because you'd be violating your 5th amendment rights.
I would never notify unless 1) i was in one of the 10 states that require it by law, or 2) the LEO was requesting I exit the vehicle at which point the chances are increased of him finding it. Otherwise, the fact that I am armed is not germane to the vehicle stop.
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Fully agree with mrjam2jab.
Have been pulled over for something minor in DE, and given a warning. I didn't mention I was armed. IF he asked me to get out of the car, I would have said "I have a carry permit officer". I mention that for the newer license holders. Don't use the word "gun". Makes people nervous.
Lumspond
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I would never notify unless 1) i was in one of the 10 states that require it by law, or 2) the LEO was requesting I exit the vehicle at which point the chances are increased of him finding it. Otherwise, the fact that I am armed is not germane to the vehicle stop.
I see your point, and don't disagree with it, but what possible harm could come from notifying? I mean let's face it, as soon as he goes back to his car and runs the license he's going to know anyway... I guess that's why in that situation I would choose to notify... He's going to know anyway, don't see what harm it does, and by me being up front it might just give him a sense of cooperation from me that might help me make out a little better in the end... *shrug*
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I thought that in delaware they would not know you have a permit by running your plates/drivers license . It was my understanding that it a process for the LEO to verify your license. Therefore for a something minor I would not say anything unless asked to exit the vehicle.
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I am sure that any Leo would like to know if I am armed , I can certainly understand that. But I am sure there's alot of them that would not like it that I was armed and would give me a hard time that wouldn't be justified. But there's no doubt there's also alot of officers that wouldn't and still be fine with it. Personally I'm probably going to notify unless the Leo gives me the impression that he's / she's an a- hole and then I may keep it to myself unless I'm asked to step out of my truck. ( I will always notify in a state that requires me to)
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I thought that in delaware they would not know you have a permit by running your plates/drivers license . It was my understanding that it a process for the LEO to verify your license. Therefore for a something minor I would not say anything unless asked to exit the vehicle.
I was told by some Leo"s that I see often that it doesn't show up when they run your license but I think they are trying to get that changed ( may already have) it was about a year ago when I asked them.
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Last year when my renewal was late because of the back log I was told by the woman at the prothonatary that the only way a leo knows if you have a permit is when they run the permit number and their system tells them if its valid. I asked because I was hoping I could carry my expired permit until the renewal arrived but she told me if I were to be stopped and the officer ran it all he would see is that I didnt have one, wouldnt say it had expired or they had my renewal, just that the one he had in hand was invalid. I dont know if they've changed it since but with the way the state runs I'd be surprised.
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I'll always notify, for my own protection... for the same reason that I always keep my hands in plain sight during a traffic stop:
The police are afraid of dying.
When they make a traffic stop, or encounter a potential suspect on foot, the possibility of being killed by the person they've stopped is always on their mind.
Long before I started carrying, a cop I knew explained this to me, and taught me proper ettiquette for a traffic stop:
0) Keep your registration and insurance card where you can get them without taking your hand out of sight even for a moment.
1) Pull over in a safe spot as soon as you realize the officer is going to stop you, instead of waiting for him to light up.
2) Open your windows, shut your engine off, and turn on the dome light if it's dark.
3) Put both hands on the top left quadrant of the steering wheel, and leave them there while the officer approaches your vehicle.
4) When the officer asks for your documents, hand him the registration and insurance, then tell him where your license is and slowly retrieve it.
5) Enjoy the ticket you don't get, or the lower-than-actual speed on the ticket you do get, and go on your way.
I have only been stopped once while carrying, on the PA Turnpike. I followed my rules, and handed the officer my LTCF with my license.
He asked where my gun was, I told him. He promptly gave me back my permit, wrote me a ticket for a much lower speed than I had been driving, and thanked me for keeping my hands in plain sight during the stop.
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I see your point, and don't disagree with it, but what possible harm could come from notifying? I mean let's face it, as soon as he goes back to his car and runs the license he's going to know anyway... I guess that's why in that situation I would choose to notify... He's going to know anyway, don't see what harm it does, and by me being up front it might just give him a sense of cooperation from me that might help me make out a little better in the end... *shrug*
I understand that informing or not tends to be a personal preference...but I don't see how informing is cooperating more than not informing. Would you also inform of other items that are in the car? ...cell phone...McD's bag...etc?
I'll always notify, for my own protection... for the same reason that I always keep my hands in plain sight during a traffic stop:
The police are afraid of dying.
When they make a traffic stop, or encounter a potential suspect on foot, the possibility of being killed by the person they've stopped is always on their mind.
Long before I started carrying, a cop I knew explained this to me, and taught me proper ettiquette for a traffic stop:
0) Keep your registration and insurance card where you can get them without taking your hand out of sight even for a moment.
1) Pull over in a safe spot as soon as you realize the officer is going to stop you, instead of waiting for him to light up.
2) Open your windows, shut your engine off, and turn on the dome light if it's dark.
3) Put both hands on the top left quadrant of the steering wheel, and leave them there while the officer approaches your vehicle.
4) When the officer asks for your documents, hand him the registration and insurance, then tell him where your license is and slowly retrieve it.
5) Enjoy the ticket you don't get, or the lower-than-actual speed on the ticket you do get, and go on your way.
I have only been stopped once while carrying, on the PA Turnpike. I followed my rules, and handed the officer my LTCF with my license.
He asked where my gun was, I told him. He promptly gave me back my permit, wrote me a ticket for a much lower speed than I had been driving, and thanked me for keeping my hands in plain sight during the stop.
That is the reason that many choose to notify...in hopes of "brotherhood recognition" leniency. But eventually you'll run into the LEO that doesn't want citizens carrying...will remove the gun for "officer safety"...extend the length of the stop to "run the numbers" something he has no reason to do...
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Last year when my renewal was late because of the back log I was told by the woman at the prothonatary that the only way a leo knows if you have a permit is when they run the permit number and their system tells them if its valid. I asked because I was hoping I could carry my expired permit until the renewal arrived but she told me if I were to be stopped and the officer ran it all he would see is that I didnt have one, wouldnt say it had expired or they had my renewal, just that the one he had in hand was invalid. I dont know if they've changed it since but with the way the state runs I'd be surprised.
Hrmmm... Well I'll be... I knew many states tie it to your drivers license, so I just assumed DE was the same... Learn something every day!
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I'll always notify, for my own protection... for the same reason that I always keep my hands in plain sight during a traffic stop:
The police are afraid of dying.
When they make a traffic stop, or encounter a potential suspect on foot, the possibility of being killed by the person they've stopped is always on their mind.
Long before I started carrying, a cop I knew explained this to me, and taught me proper ettiquette for a traffic stop:
0) Keep your registration and insurance card where you can get them without taking your hand out of sight even for a moment.
1) Pull over in a safe spot as soon as you realize the officer is going to stop you, instead of waiting for him to light up.
2) Open your windows, shut your engine off, and turn on the dome light if it's dark.
3) Put both hands on the top left quadrant of the steering wheel, and leave them there while the officer approaches your vehicle.
4) When the officer asks for your documents, hand him the registration and insurance, then tell him where your license is and slowly retrieve it.
5) Enjoy the ticket you don't get, or the lower-than-actual speed on the ticket you do get, and go on your way.
I have only been stopped once while carrying, on the PA Turnpike. I followed my rules, and handed the officer my LTCF with my license.
He asked where my gun was, I told him. He promptly gave me back my permit, wrote me a ticket for a much lower speed than I had been driving, and thanked me for keeping my hands in plain sight during the stop.
Honestly I've never been stopped while in a car... I have however been stopped MANY times while on my bike (Suzuki GSX-R). Whenever I'd get pulled I'd pull right over, shut the bike off, pull the key out of the ignition and visibly drop it on the ground off to my side. Just to give him the knowledge that I wasn't going to run. They ALWAYS thanked me for doing that, and for stopping in general. I can't even begin to count the number of times I was pulled over, but I was NEVER given a ticket... In fact, I only received ONE written warning, and that was for 60 in a 55. In reality he had clocked me at 92! No other traffic around, so he let me slide...
I guess I just figure rather the guy is a stand up fellow or a genuine @@@, doing things that show I appreciate the danger and problems they face, and that I'm doing my best to NOT contribute further to it, can only serve to help me out... Just my opinion of course!
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I understand that informing or not tends to be a personal preference...but I don't see how informing is cooperating more than not informing. Would you also inform of other items that are in the car? ...cell phone...McD's bag...etc?
That is the reason that many choose to notify...in hopes of "brotherhood recognition" leniency. But eventually you'll run into the LEO that doesn't want citizens carrying...will remove the gun for "officer safety"...extend the length of the stop to "run the numbers" something he has no reason to do...
I think the cooperating bit comes from what I said in the previous post. To most (cops) I think it says, "This guy has a weapon, but he wanted to let me know about it right away, he "cares" about me and my safety and knows that we face dangers" etc... You know what I mean? I guess I'm putting myself in their position. Knowing a citizen I was stopping has a weapon (legally) isn't going to change anything, but by that citizen informing me, it would show me that he cared and/or respected me enough to do so.
I don't think it has anything to do with a "brotherhood recognition", or at least not in my own personal choice, but regardless of the persons demeanor it can't hurt to do whatever you can to get on or stay on their good side. At least in my opinion.
As for cell phones or McD's bags, no, but they can't be used to kill him either. ;) When I have been stopped on my bike, when asked if I have any weapons (always seems to get asked anyway) I'd always mention the pocket knife I carried. Sure they didn't care, but again I think it just shows a willingness to cooperate that can't hurt, and just might help.
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I agree with the willingness to cooperate. I have no problems telling upfront I am carrying, I have no problems showing my ID if I am walking and a police officer decides to stop me, I don't get into it is my right not to show you and blah, blah, blah...if they stopped me, they had a reason, whatever it may be, and they are out there on the streets everyday dealing with ignorant people and dangerous situations, so I always cooperate. If I ever get treated like the guy in the video I will sue with the best lawyer I can afford and make sure the police department will be out of a good amount of cash and the officer looses his job.
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I believe Condition 1 makes a very good point. Cooperate and if you feel you were mistreated make your grievances known afterwards.
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In the past, I've always given my military ID along with my driver's license, registration, and insurance card when stopped by the police.
I have no issue with adding my CCW to the pile.
I always address a police officer by his/her first name, "Sir/Ma'am". If they act like jerks or cross the line, I'll seek redress via the legal system.