Delaware Concealed Carry Forum
CCW Methods & Issues => New CCW Permit Holders => Topic started by: czer on July 15, 2010, 01:57:55 AM
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Hopefully, I will have my new cc permit soon (three months and counting) and I am wondering about how good concealment of my firearm has to be 1) according to DE law and 2) from a practical point of view. I have tried a couple holsters, both IWB types and found them uncomfortable with my Kahr CW9. Even with this set-up, there is a noticable hump, when I have practiced-worn my usual T shirt and shorts. Is a small hump acceptable? Suppose the whole gun is hidden but the end of the butt still prints? Is this illegal and/or, an attention-getter? How much printing is usual or accepted? Or am I needlessly worrying about fine points? What are the chances someone, a civilian or PO, noticing or making a big deal of it? I feel that an OWB holster would be most comfortable but the chances of it printing would be higher... Alternately, I am considering getting a very small .380 pocket pistol, to make concealment easier. Any help from the more experienced would be appreciated...
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You will find that you may have to make some clothing changes when adopting a CCW lifestyle. If your shirt has a pattern on it it helps to conceal any bulges. If you routinely wear tight shirts you may have to change to looser fitting shirts. You will be surprised at just how oblivious others are to you when you are carrying. You may fell like you have a flashing red light hanging on your belt but the truth is nobody will notice it. What position on your belt you carry in also makes a difference. I carry about 4 or 4:30 which allows the butt of my weapon to fit into the curve of my back. If you carry closer to the 3:00 position you get a more noticeable bulge. It also helps to be aware of what body movements increase the bulge. I am more aware of how I bend over to get something off a lower shelf in a store or when I reach up to a higher shelf I am careful to not allow the bottom of my shirt to come up too far. If you are right handed reaching up with your left hand will help prevent this. As for getting a .380 my personal opinion is that I would not get a .380 for my everyday carry weapon. It may be fine for a back-up or for something to throw into your pocket for a quick trip to the corner store but for me it is too small to trust my safety to an a daily basis. Others may disagree with me on that and that is fine, this is just my personal opinion. Don't compromise by going to a smaller caliber.
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I believe that concealed means concealed. Anyone noticing your gun, or even suspecting that you are carrying a gun, may result in a "man with a gun in the Acme!!!" 911 call.
I fix PCs in strangers' homes for a living, so I really don't want someone to notice that I'm carrying. When I first got my permit in 2005, I kept a J-frame in my pocket in an Uncle Mike's pocket holster. After a creepy incident where I suspected 5 rounds of .38 Special may not have been enough, I decided to carry my 10mm Glock instead.
I went through the "covering garment" phase, but I wasn't satisfied with the result, so I decided to hide the gun in plain sight in a Safepacker (http://store.thewilderness.com/index.php?cPath=51).
It has worked perfectly: nobody notices it. Policemen, security guards, and everyone else completely ignore it. I've shaken hands with a US Senator wearing it, while his security guy looked right past me to watch the other folks in the crowd.
Yesterday, I had a new customer in Wilmington. It turned out that he was a really nice guy and a retired New Castle County police officer. When he told me that, I realized that carrying IWB and accidentally "printing" in this guy's basement might have ended REALLY badly for me.
I told him that I have a permit, stood up and asked him "Where's my gun?"
He looked me all over, didn't find it, then suddenly said, "Oh my Gawd... it's in there? I never would have guessed that was a gun."
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I'm pretty much in agreement with hawkeye all the way thru. People really will not notice a hump on your hip. In this day with the amount of cell phones in use, pretty much everybody has something jutting out from their hip. I've noticed I look at everybodys hips to see if I can tell if they carry, but I also know that before I carried I never looked, wasn't even in my mind that they may have a gun on them. While my opinion of the 380 is the same as hawkeye, my suggestion against them are different. 380's built on the typical Walther platform are fine shooting guns and handle nicely, however, they are also solid steel and heavy which IMO would make them uncompfortable for pocket carry. The smaller 380s such as the keltecs and rugers would be much easier to throw in the pocket but they are very small and very light guns, making the little 380 recoil kick much more. From the perceived recoil perspective you could carry a larger 9mm, have much better stopping power and about the same amount of perceived recoil.
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Also ammo costs. Quality defense 380 will probably cost alittle more than the same ammo in 9 or 40.
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Thanks for the feedback everyone. You are very supportive, which is what a newbie needs. I will probably need something pretty discreet...I am usually in liesure business attire, tucked in shirt in slacks, with no sports coat; or jeans and a shirt and am moderately thin. In the winter, I do not anticipate much of a problem but in summer I think it might be difficult. But that's why I am thinking small .380... I am not so much concerned with caliber there, but dependability of the little guns - they seem to have more than their fair share of ftf, to chamber, etc. from my reading of web posts. Does anyone have experience with the Kel Tec P3AT? Or the Diamondback .380? Ruger LCP? As I mentioned before, I have a Kahr CW9, which is pretty thin, but a little too big for pocket carry. That's what I would prefer to carry. Maybe the special IWB holsters you guys have mentioned would be best...I have seen the Smart Carry - I will look into the Safepacker too, from your suggestion.
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I carry a Para LDA 5" 1911 style gun in a OWB. Shirts 1 size larger.
If I print, oh well. So far I have NOT been questioned.
My SIL is anti. She almost busted me with a hug. So far, I dont
think she knows. (Do not care if she does...)
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Czer if your want a real good IWB holster look at the Cross Breed Super Tuck, I think you may find that with this holster a mid-size Glock will conceal real well. Look into a Glock 19 mid-size 9mm and real reliable. I use this same holster with a Glock 32 and have never had an issue.
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I had the same concerns as you when I started carrying back in Nov. I carry a Ruger LCR .38 in a pocket holster (I load my .38s to about 1000FPS, so it's plenty of gun). I usually wear jeans and a polo shirt. The only change I had to make was to wear my shirt untucked. I was carrying for a couple of months before my wife even knew. She finally asked why I don't tuck in my shirt anymore, so I showed her. I have a LEO neighbor who hasn't noticed yet. Bottom line is you can carry more gun than you think without being discovered. Don't buy a small caliber pistol if you don't really want one. Look at the Sig P250 SC or the HK USP compact. There is a holster called "Pager Pal". It looks like kind of a gizmo, but may be worth looking at. Good luck and don't worry!
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One other thing. The NRA online store also sells jeans with sewn in IWB pockets. My .38 in the pocket holster fits it really well. I can even conceal well with my shirt tucked in. Lotsa options!
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Schmenge - And you can put the LCR in your pocket? Its not too big? I was also considering an LCR. How is it working for you? Recoil and reliability OK?
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I use a Blackhawk size 4 pocket holster. Works great, easy to draw and carry. The LCR is pretty small and conceals well. I use 125gr JHPs in it. I've fired about 350 rounds through it. The recoil is significant but was actually worse with 158gr SWC. It's double action only, which I like for a gun in my pocket. The trigger pull is fairly light though. I'm pretty happy with it. Ruger makes it in a .357 now, but I'd stay away from that.
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I am wondering about how good concealment of my firearm has to be 1) according to DE law ... Suppose the whole gun is hidden but the end of the butt still prints? Is this illegal and/or, an attention-getter? How much printing is usual or accepted? Or am I needlessly worrying about fine points?
To answer the OP...DE is an open carry state, so it is my understanding* that there is NO legal significance to printing, so long as you actually have your CCDW. If you are really worried, there are some IWB holsters with a hook that allow shirt tucking. The Cross Breed Super Tuck is one example.
That said, when I first started carrying, I had a similar holster,tucked in my shirt, but also started wearing a jacket. It was a belt and suspenders kind of thing.
*IANAL. c.f.: http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/DESL.pdf (http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/DESL.pdf) , http://delcode.delaware.gov/title11/c005/sc07 (http://delcode.delaware.gov/title11/c005/sc07)/index.shtml#1441 ,
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Thanks Trevor, that was part of my original question. That and the idea of what constitutes concealed? To put it another way, what if just the butt of the gun juts out a little, not necessarily the whole gun print? Is that a matter of concern, or is it just a part of the inevitable compromise of carrying? I am probably over-analysing it. After all, I now carry a blackberry and a cell phone attached to my belt, sometimes under an untucked shirt this summer. Who's to say what those bulges are? For all anyone knows, one of them could be a gun.....
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Czer, you never want your gun to show or print.....but it will. You will get over it and the person that noticed it will also, its no big deal. I think its common to over think it when your preparing to carry, I know I did, but you'll get used to the idea and will begin to just roll with the punches. As far as the bumps on hips, start checking everybody out. I think you'll notice almost everybody has some sort of bump, whether it be a phone or keys or ipod or just the way the shirt happened to lay when they got out of the car. People really dont notice what is going on around them or with the people around them. All that really matters is to find a gun you like and that shoots reliably and find a way to carry it, everyhing else is just enough to clog your head up.
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I believe that a fair amount of great responses have been given, so I won’t belabor those points. But, one important thing to remember is the concealed carry is not without compromise. If you are used to wearing a bikini and filp-flops – that will not work for concealed carry. So, that’s your starting point. Working backwards from there, it’s simply a matter of discovering the type and amount of clothing, coupled with the type of weapon, and finishing it off with the method and location of carry. And that’s not necessarily the order that you will go in. You may be hell-bent on toting a Casull around, and will have to spend a lot of time figuring out where to hide it, or you may just want to wear a t-shirt – and then have to figure out what it hides. It’s been said before, but – during a gunfight, no one ever said “I wish that I had brought a smaller gun.” Another part of the compromise is that you need to be carrying as much as you can. Obviously, trips to Stalin-land (Maryland) and Hell (Jersey) will probably be without your hand cannon, but trips to Home Depot should not be. So, it’s a matter of getting a combo that works for you. Everyone on here will gladly tell you that the heat-waves encountered during the last six or so weeks have not been fun, especially while toting around some hardware. That inconvenience, however is better than being down on the hot concrete, cooled only by your leaking blood, while waiting for the ambulance to come pick you up after becoming a soon-to-be-dead victim.
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Corbon,
Can we see you trying to carry concealed in your bikini and flip flops? LOL
To add to this very good discussion, when I first started carrying, I felt like everyone in the world just KNEW I was carrying a firearm!! I felt like it stuck out like a sore thumb (regardless of how many times I checked in the mirrors, etc). The day I really started relaxing was the first time I went to my in-laws and realized my mother in law never saw it. And trust me, she doesnt miss a trick. She's also very anti-gun so I knew right then and there that I was doing just great with the concealment aspect.
As CorBon said, there are several things to consider when carrying concealed. In my opinion, your gun should never peek out... I know this happens and has happened to me as well, but the idea is that its not acceptable (Just my opinion). On the other hand, just about everyone you encounter who realizes your carrying a gun will typically think, Oh.. he / she is "allowed" to carry it. and they'll keep on moving.
For now, I'm going to go back to trying to reposition my firearm so I can wear my bikini again at Red Eyes!!
:) Stay safe guys! Its a crazy world!
Moosie
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To answer the OP...DE is an open carry state, so it is my understanding* that there is NO legal significance to printing, so long as you actually have your CCDW.
[BELLS GOING OFF AND LIGHTS FLASHING] Jackpot! The winner of todays question. Cannot even add to it. Ya nailed it Trevor.
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What great, honest feedback! OK, so I am now thinking, instead of focusing on smaller size pistols like a Ruger LCR, or Kel Tec, I should be spending my time on looking into various holsters. And if money has to be wasted, I would rather experiment there. I did not really want to go down to a .380, would rather stay at 9mm and up. Would anyone like a review of my Kahr CW9? I do not have tons of handgun experience, owned or shot a dozen, but you all have been great, I want to contribute to this fantastic forum.
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I agree, spend the money on holsters. I have two carry guns and two holsters for each, depending on what I'm wearing and doing that particular day. And please yes, do a review on the Kahr.
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Corbon,
Can we see you trying to carry concealed in your bikini and flip flops?
Cross-dressing isn't for everyone, but it's for me! Oh, wait, wrong forum. Sorry 'bout that.
It's been discussed before, but you will probably wind up with a pile of holsters that you found to be -- not useful. It's not the best use of your money, but it's the best way to find out what works for you. And although it seems silly, there are tons of articles out there detailing the different ways to carry, and the pros and cons of each (it seems silly, because why would someone have to write an article about how to carry anything, right?). And there are several articles and reviews (both the paid-writer and user types) out there describing various holsters. But what makes me happy and works for me, might not work for you. Which leads you back to your own soon-to-be-bought pile of used-a-couple-of-times holsters.
I've worked my way through carrying several different firearms, and have a pile of holsters for each. I've tried everything: shoulder (both horizontal and vertical); IWB; OWB (paddle and belt-looped); cross-draw; ankle; off-body; hell -- everything but just walking down the street carrying the thing in my hand. The problem is that reading an article or review, or looking at pictures of the thing online or in a magazine, or even holding one in your hand at the store -- doesn't really provide you with the feedback that you will get by using it. So, its kind of a Catch-22 -- you often have to spend money to find out that you shouldn't have spent the money.
It looks like you are well on your way to researching this issue, so that's great. I cannot stress enough that you can't spend TOO MUCH time looking into this subject, and am hard-pressed to say that you could spend too much money getting decent gear (unless you've spent over $200 to carry around a Jennings J-22 or something like that).
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I'd like to hear about the Kahr CW9 too. I've shot my buddies 3" 45 Kahr. First shot was a real eye opener! Brass came directly back and hit me BETWEEN the eyes... (yes.... eyes & ears were on)
Corbon in a bikini and flip flops? ..... A sight I really did not need to imagine.... ;D
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Corbon,
Can we see you trying to carry concealed in your bikini and flip flops? LOL
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/mdp1212/popcorn.gif)
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I felt the same way when I started carrying, but as others have said, no one will notice. Looser fitting clothes are the way to go