Delaware Concealed Carry Forum
CCW Methods & Issues => No Carry Locations => Topic started by: MarkB on July 12, 2013, 01:30:37 PM
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I'm in the process of getting my DE carry permit. I carried for 15 years in PA and SC before I moved to DE. South Carolina has a posting requirement that says a 8" X 12" sign with words and a image of a gun with the red circle/slash must be posted at each entrance in order to limit carrying at that place.
If the sign is not there or if the sign does not meet the requirements of the regulation, then you can legally carry there.
Do you think something like this can be adopted here in Delaware? It would make it easy for permit holders to know where not to carry.
I've attached the text of the South Carolina regulation so you can read it. I've also contacted Sen Lopez and Rep Smyk abou trying for this.
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South Carolina reglation
SECTION 23-31-220. Right to allow or permit concealed weapons upon premises; signs.
Nothing contained in this article shall in any way be construed to limit, diminish, or otherwise infringe upon:
(1) the right of a public or private employer to prohibit a person who is licensed under this article from carrying a concealable weapon upon the premises of the business or work place or while using any machinery, vehicle, or equipment owned or operated by the business;
(2) the right of a private property owner or person in legal possession or control to allow or prohibit the carrying of a concealable weapon upon his premises.
The posting by the employer, owner, or person in legal possession or control of a sign stating “No Concealable Weapons Allowed” shall constitute notice to a person holding a permit issued pursuant to this article that the employer, owner, or person in legal possession or control requests that concealable weapons not be brought upon the premises or into the work place. A person who brings a concealable weapon onto the premises or work place in violation of the provisions of this paragraph may be charged with a violation of Section 16-11-620. In addition to the penalties provided in Section 16-11-620, a person convicted of a second or subsequent violation of the provisions of this paragraph must have his permit revoked for a period of one year. The prohibition contained in this section does not apply to persons specified in Section 16-23-20, item (1).
SECTION 23-31-225. Carrying concealed weapons into residences or dwellings.
No person who holds a permit issued pursuant to Article 4, Chapter 31, Title 23 may carry a concealable weapon into the residence or dwelling place of another person without the express permission of the owner or person in legal control or possession, as appropriate. A person who violates this provision is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not less than one thousand dollars or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both, at the discretion of the court and have his permit revoked for five years.
SECTION 23-31-230. Carrying concealed weapons between automobile and accommodation.
Notwithstanding any provision of law, any person may carry a concealable weapon from an automobile or other motorized conveyance to a room or other accommodation he has rented and upon which an accommodations tax has been paid.
SECTION 23-31-235. Sign requirements.
(A) Notwithstanding any other provision of this article, any requirement of or allowance for the posting of signs prohibiting the carrying of a concealable weapon upon any premises shall only be satisfied by a sign expressing the prohibition in both written language interdict and universal sign language.
(B) All signs must be posted at each entrance into a building where a concealable weapon permit holder is prohibited from carrying a concealable weapon and must be:
(1) clearly visible from outside the building;
(2) eight inches wide by twelve inches tall in size;
(3) contain the words “NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED” in black one inch tall uppercase type at the bottom of the sign and centered between the lateral edges of the sign;
(4) contain a black silhouette of a handgun inside a circle seven inches in diameter with a diagonal line that runs from the lower left to the upper right at a forty five degree angle from the horizontal;
(5) a diameter of a circle; and
(6) placed not less than forty inches and not more than sixty inches from the bottom of the building’s entrance door.
(C) If the premises where concealable weapons are prohibited does not have doors, then the signs contained in subsection (A) must be:
(1) thirty six inches wide by forty eight inches tall in size; (2) contain the words “NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED” in black three inch tall uppercase type at the bottom of the sign and centered between the lateral edges of the sign;
(3) contain a black silhouette of a handgun inside a circle thirty four inches in diameter with a diagonal line that is two inches wide and runs from the lower left to the upper right at a forty five degree angle from the horizontal and must be a diameter of a circle whose circumference is two inches wide;
(4) placed not less than forty inches and not more than ninety six inches above the ground;
(5) posted in sufficient quantities to be clearly visible from any point of entry onto the premises.
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Hope not.
Right now, posted signs (except in the Post Office and other places specified by DE law) don't have force of law: we can ignore them as we see fit, and the most anyone can do is ask us to leave.
A law like that would allow anti-gunners to restrict our rights to carry in public places like malls, movie theaters, etc.
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In a word, NO! And please dont go there as OGG stated why.
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Good point but -
While it is not a weapons violation can you be charged with trespass if you ignore a posted sign, no matter how large or how small, and enter the place of business?
When the owner displays a statement that weapons are not allowed in that location, you, as a permit holder, have been given notice that you are not allowed in that place with a weapon. It's the same if the owner tells you no weapons and you walk past him. You violate the notice and you ae trespassing.
I don't know the answer to this, but it seems possible if the owner is a hardass.
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The store can only tell you to leave, if you do not, the store can then call the police, who can charge you with trespass. Your proposed law is a bad idea, with the anti-gun Dems currently in charge, you may get alot more than you asked for. Do not stir the pot! Carry in these stores, keep it concealed, and give no one cause to call the police.
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While it is not a weapons violation can you be charged with trespass if you ignore a posted sign ...
"IF" you see it. ;)
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What I carry concealed on my belt is no ones business. If a store finds my beltware problematic then I wouldn't shop there. Sign or no sign.
I know folks that carry medical devices on their belt for the same reason I carry a firearm.
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Here's the deal:
At the moment, concealed carry in Delaware flies under the radar.
Maybe it's because we're a "may issue" state, or maybe it's because none of us Privileged Few have attracted the attention of the news media... but nobody thinks about us. We barely exist. We like it that way.
Major national chains that have "no guns" signs posted in shall-issue states (e.g., Costco) don't post signs in their Delaware locations. It's really hard to find such a sign in this state... and, as stated upthread, the few signs we do encounter do not have force of law.
Every time concealed carry in Delaware comes to the attention of the politicians in Dover, they try to destroy it or screw it up. The last major effort was an attempt to change about one sentence in the law, to make us "shall issue." By the time the antis got through with it, it contained so many restrictions on concealed carry that it was withdrawn.
Let's keep our mouths shut and enjoy the status quo. The only thing a signage law would accomplish is to make our lives more complicated.
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While it is not a weapons violation can you be charged with trespass if you ignore a posted sign ...
"IF" you see it. ;)
I don't think this is correct. If it is posted, you are given notice even if you do not see it.
Very good points here. I'll pull my note to my reps.
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This subject has came up many times...We dont need more laws and signs....When you are concealed...no one knows...if a sign bothers you, then go to another store if it makes you feel better. Here is a question? Would you rather have your concealed firearm and not need it ?, or would you rather need it, and not have it???
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I've attached the text of the South Carolina regulation so you can read it. I've also contacted Sen Lopez and Rep Smyk abou trying for this.
Wow MarkB! You don't even have your CCDW yet and you're trying to change the laws for the 10K to 50k rest of us?
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Love this!
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Hot potato!
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I've attached the text of the South Carolina regulation so you can read it. I've also contacted Sen Lopez and Rep Smyk abou trying for this.
Wow MarkB! You don't even have your CCDW yet and you're trying to change the laws for the 10K to 50k rest of us?
It's simple. I'm used to living in a state that believes in and honors the US Constitution and firearm ownership. I have to remember where I am. I've been here 7 years and I still forget.
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I've attached the text of the South Carolina regulation so you can read it. I've also contacted Sen Lopez and Rep Smyk abou trying for this.
Wow MarkB! You don't even have your CCDW yet and you're trying to change the laws for the 10K to 50k rest of us?
It's simple. I'm used to living in a state that believes in and honors the US Constitution and firearm ownership. I have to remember where I am. I've been here 7 years and I still forget.
This is your idea of honoring the Constitution and gun ownership?
South Carolina
Informing Law Enforcement of Carry:
A permit holder must inform a law enforcement officer of the fact that he is a permit holder and present the permit identification card when an officer (1) identifies himself as a law enforcement officer and (2) requests identification or a driver’s license from a permit holder.
Places off-limits when carrying:
A concealed carry permit does not authorize the holder to carry a concealed weapon into a:
1. Law enforcement office or facility.
2. Detention or correctional facility.
3. Courthouse or courtroom.
4. Polling place on election days.
5. Office of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special purpose district.
6. School or college athletic event not related to firearms.
7. Day care or pre-school facility.
8. Place where federal law prohibits the carrying of firearms.
9. Medical services facilities.
10. Religious sanctuaries unless express permission is given by an appropriate official.
11. Private property where prohibited by legal owner.
Anyone in legal control of property may prohibit the carrying of concealable weapons by posting signs expressing the prohibition at each entrance to the building.
Alcohol and Drugs:
Any person convicted of carrying a pistol or firearm onto the premises of a business which sells alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises shall be subject to an additional penalty of up to 3 years imprisonment and/or $2,000 fine.
Open Carry:
Prohibited in most public areas.
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I've attached the text of the South Carolina regulation so you can read it. I've also contacted Sen Lopez and Rep Smyk abou trying for this.
Wow MarkB! You don't even have your CCDW yet and you're trying to change the laws for the 10K to 50k rest of us?
It's simple. I'm used to living in a state that believes in and honors the US Constitution and firearm ownership. I have to remember where I am. I've been here 7 years and I still forget.
This is your idea of honoring the Constitution and gun ownership?
South Carolina
Informing Law Enforcement of Carry:
A permit holder must inform a law enforcement officer of the fact that he is a permit holder and present the permit identification card when an officer (1) identifies himself as a law enforcement officer and (2) requests identification or a driver’s license from a permit holder.
Places off-limits when carrying:
A concealed carry permit does not authorize the holder to carry a concealed weapon into a:
1. Law enforcement office or facility.
2. Detention or correctional facility.
3. Courthouse or courtroom.
4. Polling place on election days.
5. Office of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special purpose district.
6. School or college athletic event not related to firearms.
7. Day care or pre-school facility.
8. Place where federal law prohibits the carrying of firearms.
9. Medical services facilities.
10. Religious sanctuaries unless express permission is given by an appropriate official.
11. Private property where prohibited by legal owner.
Anyone in legal control of property may prohibit the carrying of concealable weapons by posting signs expressing the prohibition at each entrance to the building.
Alcohol and Drugs:
Any person convicted of carrying a pistol or firearm onto the premises of a business which sells alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises shall be subject to an additional penalty of up to 3 years imprisonment and/or $2,000 fine.
Open Carry:
Prohibited in most public areas.
This is exactly why we want to stay off the radar.
We are helped, of course, by the lack of media coverage of our state... but the main factor is that we're "may issue," so nobody even thinks about concealed carry in Delaware. Let's keep quiet and keep it that way.
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This is your idea of honoring the Constitution and gun ownership?
South Carolina
Informing Law Enforcement of Carry:
A permit holder must inform a law enforcement officer of the fact that he is a permit holder and present the permit identification card when an officer (1) identifies himself as a law enforcement officer and (2) requests identification or a driver’s license from a permit holder.
Places off-limits when carrying:
A concealed carry permit does not authorize the holder to carry a concealed weapon into a:
1. Law enforcement office or facility.
2. Detention or correctional facility.
3. Courthouse or courtroom.
4. Polling place on election days.
5. Office of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special purpose district.
6. School or college athletic event not related to firearms.
7. Day care or pre-school facility.
8. Place where federal law prohibits the carrying of firearms.
9. Medical services facilities.
10. Religious sanctuaries unless express permission is given by an appropriate official.
11. Private property where prohibited by legal owner.
Anyone in legal control of property may prohibit the carrying of concealable weapons by posting signs expressing the prohibition at each entrance to the building.
Alcohol and Drugs:
Any person convicted of carrying a pistol or firearm onto the premises of a business which sells alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises shall be subject to an additional penalty of up to 3 years imprisonment and/or $2,000 fine.
Open Carry:
Prohibited in most public areas.
This is not my idea of the Constitution...the above stated law needs to stay in South Carolina!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Thanks for all the good (and not so good) comments and the needed information for me. I stand very corrected. Well, not so much standing as knocked down (which is deserved).
I understand how things are here with concealed carry; and it works.
I apologize to all members here. I was seriously mistaken.
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Stick with us MarkB. I've taken a drumming a few times now.
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no hard feelings....as Obleo sez..."We have all taken a drumming"... hang in there..
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You were correct about Delaware having -- issues. And one of these issues is that whenever Dover tries to "fix" something, they generally make it worse. That's why I'm worrying about them wanting to fix the reciprocity deal in response to the Middletown incident.
This state is like a bomb, fueled by the insanity of our neighbors, with the fuse getting lit every time something happens on a national level. Normally the hype dies down -- but I fear that the fuse is getting shorter.
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OP
Don't rock the boat. They start doing that then the postings could be force of law. If you gun is concealled its don't ask don't tell unless you are in a place legally barred from carrying.
giving our legislature an idea like this would be like telling a guy with a funny mustache in 1940's Germany "Hey there is a great thing that will happen if we split the atom"
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Good point but -
While it is not a weapons violation can you be charged with trespass if you ignore a posted sign, no matter how large or how small, and enter the place of business?
When the owner displays a statement that weapons are not allowed in that location, you, as a permit holder, have been given notice that you are not allowed in that place with a weapon. It's the same if the owner tells you no weapons and you walk past him. You violate the notice and you ae trespassing.
I don't know the answer to this, but it seems possible if the owner is a hardass.
I would listen as I doubt with the flag you have under old Glory that you want to help the anti's
If they tell you that you have to leave you leave or its a trespass. That is mostly for OC. In the case of CC the only way they would notice is if you print then it would be the same thing or you have to use you gun in a justified manner.
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The store can only tell you to leave, if you do not, the store can then call the police, who can charge you with trespass. Your proposed law is a bad idea, with the anti-gun Dems currently in charge, you may get alot more than you asked for. Do not stir the pot! Carry in these stores, keep it concealed, and give no one cause to call the police.
AMEN TO THAT FRANK
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I've attached the text of the South Carolina regulation so you can read it. I've also contacted Sen Lopez and Rep Smyk abou trying for this.
Wow MarkB! You don't even have your CCDW yet and you're trying to change the laws for the 10K to 50k rest of us?
LOL
MarkB
I am joking, but you are not a Markell plant are you??? That was just to funny I had to stop typing to laugh. Dont have a ccdw, but trying to change rules that would backfire.
Grasshopper. They will teach you the ways here.
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Yeah, I know. I carried for 15 years (PA and SC) before I moved to DE in 2007. It will be good to carry again.
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Actually, if there is a posted sign at entrance A and I come in entrance B - which does not have a posted sign, then no.. legally I'm not responsible.
FYI, the mall entrances have some blah blah blah about weapons.. Hmm. I could use hairspray and a lighter as a weapon.. or a plastic fork for all anyone cares. BUT... if you go in one of the major store entrances.. imagine that. there is no sign. On top of the fact that if we're carrying concealed then no one should know if you're carrying or not.
I know of one person who was visiting the Christiana Mall and was armed. In the hustle and bustle of the holiday shopping, either his jacket opened or he leaned over exposing his firearm. One of the "do-gooders" reported him to mall security who also contacted DSP who has a substation there. He showed his permit, they said he couldnt have it on the premise and asked him to either lock up the gun in his car or leave the grounds all together. Not being comfortable being there unarmed, he chose to leave and come back another time. No report was taken, etc. They called in a warrant check, verified his permit was valid via phone, and sent him on his way.
As others have said, we've all taken our lumps on something we've posted. No harm, no foul. :) No apology needed. This is why we're all here! If we can't have a good discussion or a debate without acting like idiots, then I'd shudder to think about that person carrying a deadly weapon.
But yes, please, don't ask our reps to try and implement something like this. We have a bunch of libtards who would love to have another chance to grab our guns.
;D
Moosie
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Well said Moosie!
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Moosie, the Dover Mall's sign is hidden upstairs in the office. You are correct, concealed means CONCEALED, what they can not see, will not arouse them
Can I get out of the trunk now?