Delaware Concealed Carry Forum
CCW Methods & Issues => No Carry Locations => Topic started by: each on January 20, 2016, 01:32:13 AM
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I can't find anything to suggest that it is in violation of the law to carry in these locations. I am admittedly not very good at finding things in Delaware code. Can someone provide any links where it says these are off limits?
- All 3 Casinos Per Casinos this is a Video Lottery Rule, Still Investigating
(I see this one is still investigating so it may be found to be legal)
- State and County Buildings
(I haven't looked into the County stuff much but can't find anything about State buildings)
- Schools
(This one _seems_ to be ok if you are a valid permit holder but I could be reading it wrong)
- Delaware State Fair
(I'm guessing this is linked to the Casino rule?)
Any links would be appreciated!
Thanks,
Each
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Good questions. I'm confused about some of these as well, specifically the school one. I may be reading it wrong but I read it the same as you, you are carrying a deadly weapon illegally unless you have a ccdw permit. Hopefully someone in the know can clarify these questions.
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The laws are written to be interpreted. No one person or group will accept the liability of publishing their interpretation. I recommend discussing your questions with (gasp) a lawyer familiar with these issues. And then don't expect a good answer.
On a more pertinent note, concealed means concealed. If you are not advertising your carry then no one needs to know. In my experience if there are wands or metal detectors at the entrance then you are likely not getting past the guard.
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Obleo is on the money. Lawyers can't even agree on the interpretation of the 2nd amendment. For what it's worth, I happened to agree with you on the interpretation of the school zone. But others feel differently. I'm sure a police officer may feel differently as he's arresting you. Also as Obleo states, concealed means concealed. I keep my pistol in my holster, and Joe Hurley's number in my phone.
Title 11, #1457 http://delcode.delaware.gov/title11/c005/sc07/index.shtml
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Re Schools: here are some links. And, IIRC, there is a post here by @OGG quoting a lawyer offerring similar advice.
A previous discussion on this topic (http://deccw.com/index.php?topic=3546.0)
U.S. Code on school carry. Scroll down to subpara q (https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2010-title18/pdf/USCODE-2010-title18-partI-chap44-sec922.pdf)
DE School law (http://delcode.delaware.gov/title11/c005/sc07/index.shtml#1457)
DE CCDW law (http://delcode.delaware.gov/title11/c005/sc07/index.shtml#1442)
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Simply my interpretation only and IANAL..
Regarding Safe School Zones.. You're concerned with the offense 1457-B-1. When you then read 1442 the first line clearly exempts anyone with a DE CCDW license which is provided by 1441.
My interpretation is that as long as you have a Delaware issued CCDW you are NOT breaking the law. I'd suggest carrying this information (and your lawyers number) with you anytime you are entering a school (or safe school zone). If for whatever reason someone calls LE on you it could keep you out of cuffs or jail unless the officer is anti-2a then you're screwed anyways since you'll then be arrested regardless. A decent LEO could listen to you explain this and let you go. There have been a few incidents where this has happened though none that I know of in Delaware unfortunately.
All this said.. and as Obleo stated... it is "Concealed" Carry. No one should ever see it unless its needed. If that happens make darn sure it is 1000% needed and still expect the SHTF afterwards.
§ 1457 Possession of a weapon in a Safe School and Recreation Zone; class D, E, or F felony; class A or B misdemeanor.
(a) Any person who commits any of the offenses described in subsection (b) of this section, or any juvenile who possesses a firearm or other deadly weapon, and does so while in or on a "Safe School and Recreation Zone" shall be guilty of the crime of possession of a weapon in a Safe School and Recreation Zone.
(b) The underlying offenses in Title 11 shall be:
(1) Section 1442. — Carrying a concealed deadly weapon; class G felony; class D felony.
... and ...
§ 1442 Carrying a concealed deadly weapon; class G felony; class D felony.
A person is guilty of carrying a concealed deadly weapon when the person carries concealed a deadly weapon upon or about the person without a license to do so as provided by § 1441 of this title.
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However, if carrying, stay off the school bus
http://regulations.delaware.gov/AdminCode/title14/1100/1150.shtml#TopOfPage
1150 School Transportation
10.15 Weapons of any kind are not permitted on a school bus.
(Thanks to handgunlaw.us)
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However, if carrying, stay off the school bus
http://regulations.delaware.gov/AdminCode/title14/1100/1150.shtml#TopOfPage
1150 School Transportation
10.15 Weapons of any kind are not permitted on a school bus.
(Thanks to handgunlaw.us)
Yup.. I've mentioned this in the past as well.
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For what it is worth I called the Division of Gaming Enforcement a couple of years ago about carrying in the casinos and I was told that there is no law against it. It is merely their policy not to allow firearms.
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Yup.. No different then No Weapons/Gun Permitted signs. For whatever reason people believe the Casinos are forbidden locations and they aren't legally. No different then Christiana Mall really. There are no DE laws prohibiting a CCDW permit holder from Casinos.
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signs have no force of law....concealed is concealed...who would know???
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Yup.. No different then No Weapons/Gun Permitted signs. For whatever reason people believe the Casinos are forbidden locations and they aren't legally. No different then Christiana Mall really. There are no DE laws prohibiting a CCDW permit holder from Casinos.
According to the ATE (Alcohol Tobacco Enforcement) group in Dover you are wrong. They told us in our Citizens Academy that the casinos are a no weapons/carry location.
I will ask the question again tomorrow at the next class and report back. Maybe they are not up on the laws. ;D
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Yup.. No different then No Weapons/Gun Permitted signs. For whatever reason people believe the Casinos are forbidden locations and they aren't legally. No different then Christiana Mall really. There are no DE laws prohibiting a CCDW permit holder from Casinos.
According to the ATE (Alcohol Tobacco Enforcement) group in Dover you are wrong. They told us in our Citizens Academy that the casinos are a no weapons/carry location.
I will ask the question again tomorrow at the next class and report back. Maybe they are not up on the laws. ;D
Ask them to quote the law/regulation.
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Yup.. No different then No Weapons/Gun Permitted signs. For whatever reason people believe the Casinos are forbidden locations and they aren't legally. No different then Christiana Mall really. There are no DE laws prohibiting a CCDW permit holder from Casinos.
According to the ATE (Alcohol Tobacco Enforcement) group in Dover you are wrong. They told us in our Citizens Academy that the casinos are a no weapons/carry location.
I will ask the question again tomorrow at the next class and report back. Maybe they are not up on the laws. ;D
Ask them to quote the law/regulation.
Exactly.. I don't care what they say or tell you unless they can show the written law that says its illegal for a CCDW holder to carry in the Casinos. Lots of places 'say' its not permitted however I've yet to read any law that says so.
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I asked the question Wednesday at the Citizens Academy and they told me it was a "Gaming" law written in the gaming provision.
Can someone on hear look this up so I can let them know next Wednesday what actually is written in DE state law?
-addition - I will see if I can find something in the gaming section.
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Is this a homework assignment, a less-than-knowledgeable instructor, or a deliberate obfuscation? Maybe DE doesn't want us to know the correct answer. As an instructor, the first thing I did after class was to find out the answer to questions like this.
The DE Dept of Gaming Enforcement (http://dge.delaware.gov) lists Lottery Laws in the banner.
That links to Bill 310 which is:
AN ACT TO AMEND TITLES 3, 11 AND 29 OF THE DELAWARE CODE RELATING TO THE OPERATION OF TABLE GAMES BY THE DELAWARE LOTTERY, THE CREATION OF A DIVISION OF GAMING ENFORCEMENT WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT OF SAFETY AND HOMELAND SECURITY, LICENSING OF VIDEO LOTTERY AGENT PERSONNEL AND LOTTERY AND AGENT VENDORS, PROHIBITION ON GAMING BY CERTAIN PERSONS, THE CREATION OF A LOTTERY COMMISSION, AND THE NUMBER OF HARNESS RACING DAYS.
A search for "firearms" yields a null result.
ATE (http://date.delaware.gov) and DGE are divisions of the DE Dept of Safety and Homeland Security. The ATE website is not informative on this subject.
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I went to the DE Administrative Code website (http://regulations.delaware.gov/AdminCode/ (http://regulations.delaware.gov/AdminCode/)) and ran a search for all regulations including the words "firearm" and "casino." I then searched all of those regs for instances of the word firearm and read them. Nothing at all on point.
Then I searched for "firearm and slot" (figuring maybe casino wasn't the correct word). Again searched all those results for "firearm" and read. Still nothing on point.
I cannot find any regulation prohibiting firearms from a casino. Seems like the only way to find it is to get charged, and see what section you're prosecuted under! :o (no, I'm not volunteering).
I did find a thread on this forum dating back to 2012 (http://deccw.com/index.php?topic=1681.0 (http://deccw.com/index.php?topic=1681.0)). Apparently nobody has found the applicable statute or reg for four at least years now. >:(
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I asked the question Wednesday at the Citizens Academy and they told me it was a "Gaming" law written in the gaming provision.
Can someone on hear look this up so I can let them know next Wednesday what actually is written in DE state law?
-addition - I will see if I can find something in the gaming section.
I've read that before and searched through everything looking for any written law and there is nothing. If the Citizens Academy is teaching this you should request they show you the written law. I've yet to find anyone whose able to locate it. Perhaps they will learn something. 😜
Again, they says it's the law and that firearms aren't allowed however they never post or produce the law they are saying exists. It doesn't (as far as I/we can tell). If you are told something often enough, over time you believe it. Seems this is the case with with the DE ban on firearms at Casinos.
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I also searched all the documents I could find on the state.de.gov web site and department of gaming. etc.
I could not find any regulation on concealed carry in a casino.
I am not done searching so I will report back later
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According to http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/delaware.pdf It is prohibited to carry a gun with or with out a permit in a Delaware Casino or "slots".
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According to http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/delaware.pdf It is prohibited to carry a gun with or with out a permit in a Delaware Casino or "slots".
But they also note.
I can find nothing in the DE State Statutes or the DE Administrative Rules stating Slot/Casinos are off limits.
They also say nothing about state buildings, the sticky says state buildings are off limits and the state fair. I have never found any law stating that.
But I could be overlooking it.
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I am grateful to all of the members that took a look so far. I enjoy the restaurants in the complex but everyone has to transgress the casino to get to them. Clarity is needed here.
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I have a question.
Has anyone contacted the AG's office and asked them to list the law or regulation that prohibits firearms in the casinos? Of course, this could let them know that it may not exist and then they write a law or regulation to make it real.
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@MarkB It is better to have clarity than to find out otherwise when a situation happens.
I can not find anything anywhere that say you can not carry concealed in a casino. SO...............
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So!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if no metal detectors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Doubt the AG's office would tell you anything.
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Actually the AGs office can be quite helpful. For me anyways. I've contacted them twice in the past via email(online form) regarding firearm issues. Both times I received a quick reply saying my request had been forwarded to one of their legal staff for review. In each case I received a polite detailed reply the following day which included noted sections of the law and explanations. I was quite surprised to say the least and thankful as well.
If anyone really needs a clarification then I'd suggest going to the AGs website, following the Contact links and fill out the online forum to send in your request.
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Just off the phone with the investigator. Asked the question where in the law is it stating casinos are off limits.
Could not direct me to the law but said to call the casino and ask for security or the DSP detail assigned there and ask them.
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I'm with Joet. No metal detectors no problem. Nobody is flashing their weapons around. Concealed is concealed, just make sure you're not printing.
If they are having such a hard time finding the law it most likely isn't there.
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I wouldn't believe whatever the casino security head has to say. Once again, where is it in Delaware code, etc?
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Radnor... What "investigator"? Did you call the AGs office or someone else?
IMO calling the Casino Security is most likely going to be useless. Their just going to say they are banned and/or illegal to possess there. Even if you got a hold of a DSP officer they're likely to say the same. Neither the Casino Security or LEOs are lawyers and aren't going to be able to tell you the exact law or where to find it.
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IMO calling the Casino Security is most likely going to be useless. Their just going to say they are banned and/or illegal to possess there. Even if you got a hold of a DSP officer they're likely to say the same. Neither the Casino Security or LEOs are lawyers and aren't going to be able to tell you the exact law or where to find it.
I agree. Casino security is likely trained and operating based on rules and procedures that do not refer back to the source documents, i.e., the DE law. Even if they did know that the "no gun" law doesn't exist, I doubt that they want to incur the wrath of their superiors for letting the cat out of the bag.
Case in point: when I went for my DE drivers license, the procedure listed an either/or for the required documentation. I had the 'or' but the clerks insisted on the 'either'. I had to appeal to a manager to get my license (and he wouldn't talk to me but approved my docs). So they were following the word-of-mouth typical method despite the written procedure.
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Radnor... What "investigator"? Did you call the AGs office or someone else?
From the AG's office.
Long story but....
Dale Broome called me wanting me to put my NRA credentials on my CCDW certificates.
So they could verify I was on the list of instructors. So I did, along with a disclaimer
stating it was not an official NRA course. (To put my credentials on a non-NRA certificate,
Per the NRA - I must add it was not an official NRA course.)
This prompted a call from the AG's investigator. So I found the page in my TC Guide
where it talks about using the info on non NRA material and emailed it to him within
about an hour. Gave him a few hours to look it over. Then I called him to follow up.
I was thanked for being so prompt and was told he wished all instructors did the same.
Then I sent him an email stating I could not find the code anywhere asking if he could
point me in the right direction. He referred me to casino security or DSP there for
clarification.
Side note... I found the number they call out on 298 prefix is a black hole.
Think it is out bound only. Fortunately, I was given his direct number from
another person.
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I will repeat my earlier post:
For what it is worth I called the Division of Gaming Enforcement a couple of years ago about carrying in the casinos and I was told that there is no law against it. It is merely their policy not to allow firearms.
This, then, brings us to:
Title 11, Part I, Chapter 2. General Provisions Concerning Offenses
§ 202. All offenses defined by statute.
(a) No conduct constitutes a criminal offense unless it is made a criminal offense by this Criminal Code or by another law.
In simple terms, if it is not written in the code as an offense then it is not illegal. We are exerting a lot of time trying to find where it specifically says it is legal or illegal to carry in the casinos. The truth of the matter is its absence makes it legal. If someone says it is illegal, they have to point to the actual law and in this case the law seems not to exist. However, like I said, they admitted to me that there is no law, it is their policy not to allow it.
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@Hawkeye...agree...agree..agree...
here are my other two posts on the subject.So!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if no metal detectors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
signs have no force of law.. and concealed is concealed..
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@Hawkeye...agree...agree..agree...
here are my other two posts on the subject.So!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if no metal detectors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
signs have no force of law.. and concealed is concealed..
Speaking of medal detectors, is there a list anywhere of medal detector locations. Or maybe a bunch of folks could weigh in with locations. I agree with signs aren't law and concealed is concealed, but I would hate to go somewhere and get busted by a medal detector. Thanks in advance for any info.
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I believe you'll see Casinos removed from the Handgunlaws website on the next update.. Mid week coming. Gary tells me he removed the note alongside Casinos, which some of you may remember, a while back but forgot to remove the Casinos line as well.
Done