Delaware Concealed Carry Forum

CCW Methods & Issues => No Carry Locations => Topic started by: 8thFA on March 11, 2016, 09:59:38 PM

Title: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: 8thFA on March 11, 2016, 09:59:38 PM
Man I would love to see this win, my family and I use state parks all the time...

http://dasal.org/lawsuit-filed-contesting-unconstitutional-blanket-gun-ban-regulations-in-delawares-parks-state-forests-and-wildlife-areas/
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: 29thInfantry on March 11, 2016, 10:07:55 PM
right with you on this one
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: Obleo on March 12, 2016, 01:16:55 PM
It's our land too.
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: 8thFA on March 12, 2016, 02:54:24 PM
It's our land too.

Yes it is.
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: PPScarry on March 12, 2016, 03:25:51 PM
Excited about this. Never made sense.
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: Cbmarine on March 12, 2016, 10:00:00 PM
When camping and seconds count, the police are hours away (if they can find you at all).

402 State Forest Regulations
7.5 Camping is at your own risk. State Forests are a public use area and there is no after-hours, nighttime or weekend security. Law enforcement is provided by the Delaware State Police should the need arise.
http://regulations.delaware.gov/register/april2006/proposed/9%20DE%20Reg%201425%2004-01-06.htm
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: 8thFA on March 13, 2016, 12:58:56 AM
When camping and seconds count, the police are hours away (if they can find you at all).

402 State Forest Regulations
7.5 Camping is at your own risk. State Forests are a public use area and there is no after-hours, nighttime or weekend security. Law enforcement is provided by the Delaware State Police should the need arise.
http://regulations.delaware.gov/register/april2006/proposed/9%20DE%20Reg%201425%2004-01-06.htm
And then they tell you no guns allowed...  That's nuts...
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: Adrenolin on March 18, 2016, 07:47:08 PM
I sent a letter formally requesting allowance, per their posted rules.. I was denied for no reason aside that "..it was their long standing policy.." BS.
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: SturmRugerSR9 on March 18, 2016, 10:59:21 PM
Best advise: Support the lawsuit in any way you can.
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: ODBrunizz on June 09, 2016, 06:59:25 PM
I know I'm late to the party but this is good news.  When you're off the beatten path miles from roadways in the woods, why shouldn't you be able to protect yourself?
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: 8thFA on June 10, 2016, 05:06:16 PM
I know I'm late to the party but this is good news.  When you're off the beatten path miles from roadways in the woods, why shouldn't you be able to protect yourself?
Exactly.  I have my PA LTCF and I can carry in PA state parks, but not in my home state.
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: Cbmarine on August 11, 2016, 02:50:09 PM
Is there any update on this case?  I didn't find anything on the dasal.org website later than March 2016 relating to this case.
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: Adrenolin on August 17, 2016, 08:01:56 PM
None.. It's the courts, it could be years.  :-\
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: SimpleMan on September 14, 2016, 01:37:44 PM
Glad to see this suit.  I support the group pursuing this.  I know it takes a big commitment of time and energy and they need to know we are behind them.

Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: Cbmarine on November 20, 2016, 02:03:22 AM
Heard today that this case has been moved from the Court of Chancery to the Superior Court which a less-friendly environment. A ruling had been expected in September.
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: 8thFA on November 20, 2016, 04:56:59 PM
Heard today that this case has been moved from the Court of Chancery to the Superior Court which a less-friendly environment. A ruling had been expected in September.

Dammit.  Being ignorant of Delaware politics as I am, what do you think the odds of passage are?
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: Cbmarine on November 20, 2016, 06:04:10 PM
Heard today that this case has been moved from the Court of Chancery to the Superior Court which a less-friendly environment. A ruling had been expected in September.

Dammit.  Being ignorant of Delaware politics as I am, what do you think the odds of passage are?
didn't ask that question. If the ban is struck down, expect it to be delayed as long as possible.
Got distracted with a discussion of school carry. One member of the discussion who only gave his first name said that he knew the current AG and that the AG has his own opinions that tend to differ from written law. 
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: EMS2n21 on November 04, 2017, 04:29:14 PM
Any ruling?  Ridiculous that a law was passed for the people and by the people that opposes our right to life (or the right to defend said life).  One can take a hunting course and be allowed to hunt same properties and not have a CCW permit.
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: MarkB on November 04, 2017, 06:26:07 PM
This may be helpful for a favorable decision.  Sussex County, this week, passed a firearm carry ordinance that bans carry in all county buildings, except for LEO's and CCW permit holders.  This ordinance recognizes that all CCW permit holders are"safe" and are allowed to carry concealed in all county buildings.  This means that a Delaware government entity approves of CCW permit holders and yhis fact can be used to argue for CCW carry in State Parks and forests.

https://sussexcountyde.gov/sites/default/files/ordinances/Possession%20of%20Firearms%20in%20County%20Buildings%20Ordinance.101017.pdf (https://sussexcountyde.gov/sites/default/files/ordinances/Possession%20of%20Firearms%20in%20County%20Buildings%20Ordinance.101017.pdf)
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: Rabbit on December 08, 2017, 01:10:25 AM
Reversed, https://courts.delaware.gov/Opinions/Download.aspx?id=266310
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: Clarence on December 08, 2017, 01:34:58 AM
Wow!   We did it.  This is huge.
Congratulations to the freedom loving patriots who fought this and a salute to those justices who actually put
Integrity over political expediency
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: Adrenolin on December 08, 2017, 06:53:40 PM
So does this also include the C&D Canal lands as well?
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: Clarence on December 08, 2017, 08:47:12 PM
So does this also include the C&D Canal lands as well?
No. That is Corp of Engineers.  Trump is reportedly working on an executive order to fix that though.

This only fixes state parks and forests but it also clears up the illegal New Castle County ordinance as well as an earlier Kent parks rule.

The majority opinion is a good read.  Well thought out.
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: 8thFA on December 08, 2017, 09:27:02 PM
Wow!   We did it.  This is huge.
Congratulations to the freedom loving patriots who fought this and a salute to those justices who actually put
Integrity over political expediency
This is huge, and a complete surprise to me!  I thought thisappeal had no chance. 
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: Adrenolin on December 08, 2017, 10:21:19 PM
So does this also include the C&D Canal lands as well?
No. That is Corp of Engineers.  Trump is reportedly working on an executive order to fix that though.

This only fixes state parks and forests but it also clears up the illegal New Castle County ordinance as well as an earlier Kent parks rule.

The majority opinion is a good read.  Well thought out.
Yeah I wasn’t sure here. DNC still Patrol, maintains and manages the actual Land at the C&D Canal. I’m there often and those are the only vehicles I see. Have had many talks with them as well though not on this topic.
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: Adrenolin on December 09, 2017, 03:21:05 AM
Now if/WHEN HR38 passes it’ll open up the C&D lands for CC. Wonder how many more years we’ll have to wait.

Quote
Question: What does this change if anything about carrying on Federal Property like National Parks?

Answer: Currently the law allows that the prohibition or allowance of firearms in a National Park, Monument, or Memorial is regulated by the state in which that park, monument, or memorial is located. In HR38 that changes to allow that anyone carrying under the bill can carry a concealed handgun in any of the following areas that are open to the public: A unit of the National Park System, a unit of the National Wildlife Refuge System, public land under the jurisdiction of the BLM, land administered and managed by the Army Corps of Engineers, Land administered and managed by the Bureau of Reclamation, Land administered and managed by the Forest Service.
Edit: Source: https://www.concealedcarry.com/national/answers-to-your-questions-about-hr-38-national-concealed-carry-reciprocity/
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: NormH3 on December 09, 2017, 10:57:41 AM
So does this also include the C&D Canal lands as well?
No. That is Corp of Engineers.  Trump is reportedly working on an executive order to fix that though.

This only fixes state parks and forests but it also clears up the illegal New Castle County ordinance as well as an earlier Kent parks rule.

The majority opinion is a good read.  Well thought out.

Yes but the lands around the C&D are under the jurisdiction of Delaware Fish and Game. I think we will need to get a clarification on that.
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: Cbmarine on December 09, 2017, 03:35:12 PM
The State will probably be slow to update the regs but here's the one for C&D Canal
3900 Wildlife

General Rules and Regulations Governing Land and Waters Administered by the Division (http://regulations.delaware.gov/AdminCode/title7/3000/3900%20Wildlife/3908.shtml#TopOfPage)
8.3.4   Firearms on Division Areas.

8.3.4.1   It shall be unlawful for any person to possess a firearm on lands or waters administered by the Division from March 1 through August 31, except as authorized by the Director in writing.

8.3.4.2   It shall be unlawful for any person to possess a rifled firearm of any description at any time on those lands bordering the Chesapeake and Delaware Canal and licensed to the Department by the Government of the United States for wildlife management purposes, except that muzzleloaders and shotguns with rifle barrels may be used during deer seasons when it is lawful to use those firearms.

8.3.4.3   It shall be unlawful for any person to discharge any firearm on lands or waters administered by the Division on Sunday, except in areas designated by the Director or with a permit from the Director.

8.3.4.4   It shall be unlawful for any person to discharge any firearm on lands or waters administered by the Division for any purpose, including target shooting, other than to hunt during an open season, under conditions approved by the Director and specified on the current wildlife area map.

8.3.4.5   It shall be unlawful to possess, consume or be under the influence of alcoholic beverages, liquors or drugs while hunting or in the possession of firearms when on lands administered by the Division.

8.3.5   Dikes. It shall be unlawful for any person to be in possession of any firearm on any dike administered by the Division, unless such person is temporarily crossing a dike at a ninety degree angle or traversing a dike to reach a Division authorized deer stand location during a deer firearms hunting season.
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: Obleo on December 15, 2017, 02:47:08 PM
Wow!  Had to look out the window to see if pigs were flying.
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: NormH3 on January 02, 2018, 12:13:08 PM
Well it appears DNREC has imposed restrictions within the park. This should be interesting.
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: ChrisCar on January 03, 2018, 07:54:45 PM
Apparently the State has already tried to undo the ruling (at least to some extent).    According to the article, the new regs do not apply to permit holders (I haven't read them myself). 

The following was printed in the News Journal on 12/26/2017. (http://www.delawareonline.com/story/news/local/2017/12/28/state-officials-respond-court-ruling-partial-gun-ban-parks/986835001/ (http://www.delawareonline.com/story/news/local/2017/12/28/state-officials-respond-court-ruling-partial-gun-ban-parks/986835001/))


State officials have written a new version of a gun ban in state parks and forests following a recent state Supreme Court decision declaring a full ban unconstitutional.

The state Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Control and state Department of Agriculture published emergency regulations this week, about three weeks after Supreme Court justices shot down the decades-old ban.

The revised rules outline specific places within parks and forests, such as visitor centers, group camping areas and lodges, where it will be illegal to carry weapons.

Both agencies said that without the temporary regulations the court’s ruling means “firearms would essentially be unregulated.”

“A risk of harm from gunfire would be presented in these and other areas where visitors gather, including families and children,” state cabinet secretaries wrote in orders accompanying the regulations.

"The Supreme Court thought our regulations were too broad," DNREC Secretary Shawn Garvin said in a phone interview. "We're complying with the Supreme Court's decision and want to make sure that there's a complete understanding of what can happen in our parks as it relates to firearms."

The updated ban excludes Delaware residents with valid permits to carry concealed deadly weapons and active or retired law enforcement officers, provided they show their license or credentials to park authorities.

The new rules also state people can apply for daily approval from the DNREC Secretary to carry weapons if they can show “good cause related to self-defense or the defense of family, and due regard for the safety of others.”

For decades, DNREC and the Department of Agriculture completely banned firearms, as well as slingshots and archery equipment, in state parks and forests.

On Dec. 7, Delaware Supreme Court justices ruled 3-2 to reverse the Superior Court’s 2016 decision to uphold the ban. The issue reached the courts through a 2015 lawsuit filed by the Bridgeville Rifle and Pistol Club, Delaware State Sportsmen’s Association and several individual plaintiffs.

The justices wrote in their December decision that state agencies had no authority to pass regulations that contradict residents’ rights under the state Constitution and that “the regulations completely eviscerate a core right to keep and bear arms for defense of self and family outside the home – a right this court has already recognized.”

The Supreme Court decision quashed the bans instituted in the 1960s and 1970s, which excluded weapons used for hunting in approved areas.

Weapons used for hunting in permitted areas and seasons are still allowed, but state officials have developed emergency regulations in light of a recent state Supreme Court ruling nixing a decades-old ban on other firearms in state parks and forests.

Weapons used for hunting in permitted areas and seasons are still allowed, but state officials have developed emergency regulations in light of a recent state Supreme Court ruling nixing a decades-old ban on other firearms in state parks and forests.

Wilmington-based attorney Francis Pileggi, who represented the plaintiffs in the lawsuit, said Thursday he had not yet seen the emergency regulations.

“I will review them closely to make an independent determination whether they comply with the Supreme Court’s recent decision,” he said in a phone interview.

Thomas Shellenberger, a Delaware attorney who has been following the case, also said the state’s response to the court ruling was news to him.

“The court found that this is a constitutionally protected right, and you have to have more than just a good idea to strip people of their Constitutional rights in Delaware,” the Hockessin resident said. “You certainly hope that you’re not going to get mugged in a park but criminals don’t set boundaries.”

Shellenberger said with the previous ban, people would have no idea that as a concealed carry permit holder they were violating the law while walking in public places like Auburn Heights Preserve in Yorklyn legally carrying a weapon.

He said the rewritten rules raise some red flags. He said the agencies' claim that firearms are completely unregulated in parks and forests because of the court's ruling is inaccurate.

"All the existing state and federal laws would be in full force in those areas," he said, noting overarching laws regarding brandishing guns and carrying concealed weapons without a permit, among others.

"All those laws apply in the state parks like they do everywhere else in Delaware," Shellenberger said. "There's no emergency need for the regulations, contrary to the claim."

Shellenberger said the revision allowing Delaware residents with permits to carry concealed deadly weapons excludes people from other states, such as Kentucky, who - if properly licensed – are permitted to carry concealed weapons in Delaware according to a reciprocal law. It also requires them to show their license to "parks authorities."

The emergency regulations are valid for 120 days, and then can be renewed for another 60 days. Both agencies said in a press release they plan to propose new, permanent regulations. 
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: kent on January 04, 2018, 11:17:25 AM
I stopped into a State Park office to renew my Park pass and I asked the question, "What are the rules for Concealed Carry in State Parks". I was told the Person that is carrying concealed MUST contact a Park Ranger and notify him/her that they are carrying a concealed weapon and Must show their CCDW Permit. This Must be done as soon as the Permit carrier enters the Park. I assume you have to ride around the park until you find a Park Ranger before you take a walk in the Park or light the BBQ.
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: topper on January 04, 2018, 12:33:54 PM
Blackbird Forest has many unmanned tracts. I walk my dog in some of these areas. How do I notify a Ranger if it is unmanned?

I called in to report a rabid raccoon one time at Lums Pond. I told the lady at the park office that I reported it too that I'd hang around till someone arrived so I could show them where it was. I was told it might be quite awhile before anyone got there. (In other words, they didn't care if it was rabid or not, they weren't in a hurry.) When I drove to the office, she told me it probably wasn't really rabid. I haven't been back since. I don't believe there was a Ranger in the park anyway.

I bet if I told them there was someone open carrying a gun they would have responded pretty quick.
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: lynch on January 04, 2018, 02:15:00 PM
And will these park rangers be taking names, etc. when you show them a permit?
Are they going to follow you around if they know you have a firearm?
Sheesh.
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: Cbmarine on January 04, 2018, 07:41:53 PM
And will these park rangers be taking names, etc. when you show them a permit?
Are they going to follow you around if they know you have a firearm?
Sheesh.
IMHO, the Park office staffers are told to, and will, quote the party line. Actually the emergency reg  (http://www.dnrec.delaware.gov/Info/Documents/Secretarys-Order-No-2017-P-0030.pdf) says:
21.1.4 "showing license to Park authorities"
21.1.7 "shall display identification upon entry and upon request"

In neither paragraph does it specify "Ranger". If I see a Park Ranger, I'll introduce myself. If the entrance is staffed, I'll display my permit.  I expect that Park Rangers will have more urgent matters to consider.
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: SteveMiller on January 04, 2018, 11:26:29 PM
I guess I am wondering if they have a legal authority now to enforce a rule that they make up that doesn’t apply to the rest of Delaware
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: 563jack on January 05, 2018, 05:58:46 PM
Well the new emergency regulations are temporary. Wilmington-based attorney Francis Pileggi, who represented the plaintiffs in the lawsuit, said Thursday he had not yet seen the emergency regulations.

“I will review them closely to make an independent determination whether they comply with the Supreme Court’s recent decision,” he said in a phone interview.

Shellenberger said the rewritten rules raise some red flags. He said the agencies' claim that firearms are completely unregulated in parks and forests because of the court's ruling is inaccurate.

"All the existing state and federal laws would be in full force in those areas," he said, noting overarching laws regarding brandishing guns and carrying concealed weapons without a permit, among others.

"All those laws apply in the state parks like they do everywhere else in Delaware," Shellenberger said. "There's no emergency need for the regulations, contrary to the claim."

Shellenberger said the revision allowing Delaware residents with permits to carry concealed deadly weapons excludes people from other states, such as Kentucky, who - if properly licensed – are permitted to carry concealed weapons in Delaware according to a reciprocal law. It also requires them to show their license to "parks authorities."

The emergency regulations are valid for 120 days, and then can be renewed for another 60 days. Both agencies said in a press release they plan to propose new, permanent regulations.

I hope they hold open discussions on this and remain open to public opinion.
Title: Re: Lawsuit against state park ban
Post by: Clarence on January 05, 2018, 10:20:05 PM
Hold open Discussions?. 😂  Dream on!