Delaware Concealed Carry Forum
State News & Gun News => Delaware News => Topic started by: BillyTheKidd556 on February 23, 2017, 02:50:49 AM
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I have been trying to get some momentum going on a Delaware constitutional carry petition. Our current process is over priced and potentially puts us in danger (putting your address in the paper saying you own a firearm) i posted on Facebook and got 4 signatures :(. Turns out Facebook friends are only willing to like your pro gun post, but when it comes to taking action they do nothing. The link will be below. If this is not allowed i apologize.
https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/delaware-constitutional-carry/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=button
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Not a Facebook person, but good luck with that in Delaware.
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While yes it's expensive, a can of Coke is expensive today, other states can be just as expensive and even more expensive. Your $500 figure is inflated as well since both the wife and I did everything together including costs for NJ DMV records along with overnight courier services to deliver out paperwork to the court and iirc the total was just under $700 bucks.
While "potentially puts us in danger" I agree with, find a single instance of a home being broken into, the owner threatened or harmed (in this state) due to the newspaper posting. P00f.. The posting has been required for over 100 years and without a single reported instance any danger is insignificant to our leaders.
Constitutional Carry has absolutely zero chance in Delaware at this point due to its current politics and judges. It just simply isn't going to happen. You could literally have 20,000 signatures or even 20,000 people show up at a rally and the current government would turn it down.
One also has to remember that today everything is give and take and unfortunately gun owners usually give much more then we get. Currently yeah, we pay quite a bit BUT we can carry most places and signs can be ignored. That said, if a Bill for Constitutional Carry was voted on I could see the other side adding more restrictions. Suddenly signs are legal, pubs, bars or even restaurants that serves alcohol, banks, public transportation, etc are all off limits because politicians added on more anti-gun provisions. They could even tack on a crazy mental health checkup requirement! How much are you willing to give up to gain Constitutional Carry?
Personally I'd like to see Pro groups start working on the state suppressor ban since I see them being removed from the NFA program soon. Or something like having the silly automatic knife ban removed. They are safer then folding knives and are no more dangerous. Heck, even Maryland removed their ban a few years ago.
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Agree with Adrenolin on all the key points and priority. Also to the point he makes about no carry places, we always see AZ as super gun friendly, but how about seeing no carry signs all over the place that are enforceable by law. For that reason, not a place I would consider living.
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Frankly, I'm not a fan of constitutional carry. Just because one is able to buy a gun and carry it however s/he wants to in a constitutional carry state, it doesn't mean that s/he is safe or qualified to do so. Trust me, I have a few friends that are gun owners that I cringe at the thought of them carrying a weapon for a myriad or reasons.
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I'm in agreement with MarcWinkman. Not just anyone should be able to carry.
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Frankly, I'm not a fan of constitutional carry. Just because one is able to buy a gun and carry it however s/he wants to in a constitutional carry state, it doesn't mean that s/he is safe or qualified to do so. Trust me, I have a few friends that are gun owners that I cringe at the thought of them carrying a weapon for a myriad or reasons.
Strongly agree. The prefatory clause of the 2nd amendment is the necessity of the militia which inherently mandates firearms proficiency which is gained through training and practice. Constitutional carry provides an excuse to bypass firearms discipline. Just the simple concept of muzzle control is an unknown to most people. Four Gun Laws? Color Codes? Fed and State laws? AOJ+P?
The more training I get, the more I find out how little I know. 'Nuf said.
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See plenty of people at the range handle pistols with their finger on the trigger. I always correct them or leave if they don't want my advice. Pretty bad.
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Frankly, I'm not a fan of constitutional carry. Just because one is able to buy a gun and carry it however s/he wants to in a constitutional carry state, it doesn't mean that s/he is safe or qualified to do so. Trust me, I have a few friends that are gun owners that I cringe at the thought of them carrying a weapon for a myriad or reasons.
Marc I agree 100%. Go to your local range and look at all the divots in the walls and ceilings, then imagine all those folks with a gun in their pants...
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I disagree on the required training though believe anyone with a firearm should gain some knowledge. Imo common sense goes a long away and sadly today very few people have any. Also in regards to the militia. The large majority of Militia were everyday people with little to no real shooting experience before the wars and even then many were simply passed a rifle. With some common sense pretty much anyone realizes safe handling, pointing, etc of a firearm but again it's gravely lacking today. Additionally pretty much anyone can pick up a 9mm, shoot and hit a target at 15-20' away and in a stressful situation even LEOs and military personal can freeze up.
Don't know about many of the other CCDW classics but the two I know about focus very little on training and mostly on the legalities and safety of carrying a firearm.
Yes, I agree that people should train even if they just have a nighttable gun or they carry but I disagree that it should be required. If anything, people should have a common sense exam since that goes much further then an hour at a range with an instructor without any common sense.
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We now have at least 12 states with so called constitutional carry. I have not seen the problems that are envisioned. Vermont never required any form of license to carry concealed. I have traveled many times in that state. Never had a feeling that it was s dangerous place.
Pennsylvania has well over a million carry licenses out there and does not require training. Do we see a lot of problems?
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely believe in training. But a license is just that. A permission slip that is granted by the state. And it can be taken away if the state chooses to do so.
A right is a right. If people abuse it then THEY need to be held accountable.
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I love (satire) reading anti-gun / pro infringement opinions on pro-gun sites.
Requiring a class is a good idea, forcing it is ineffective. I wrote about my experience in a local class ( thread locked) and how I have 13+ (and counting) combat deployments, and Ive never felt so unsafe as I did with the people in the class around live rounds.
Granted, Im a Constitutional Conservative/ Libertarian so it makes sense, If you pass the background check, go get your CCDW.
AT MOST you should have to do an online 1 hour course that covers LEGALITY of CCDW. AT MOST - open carry should be the permit required, not CONCEALED. If your broadcasting to the general public you armed, you better be a trained and experienced person
If a person whom can legally purchase a firearm, chooses to carry it, concealed, w/o training, thats on them... and yes, ts on THEM if they shoot bystanders, it on them if they get disarmed and shot with their own weapon.. its all on them
Normalizing slight and constant infringements of natural born rights, is not the right way to think about things
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My point is that if you are going to carry at all, you're going to have to meet higher standards for personal responsibility, situational awareness, and personal judgment. Unfortunately not all people who own guns are responsible notwithstanding their ability to pass an NICS check after filling out a 4473.
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Frankly, I'm not a fan of constitutional carry. Just because one is able to buy a gun and carry it however s/he wants to in a constitutional carry state, it doesn't mean that s/he is safe or qualified to do so. Trust me, I have a few friends that are gun owners that I cringe at the thought of them carrying a weapon for a myriad or reasons.
I agree but as a friend when I see another friend that is carrying or talking about it I do my best to help them do the right thing. I have brought a few anti gunners to the light here recently. All it takes is that first shot they fire if they put it down and walk away then you know they are not going to do it. But when they just keep pulling the trigger with a big grin on their face and I get the wow that was fun. It was all worth it i have yet to have one just fire one shot.
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Frankly, I'm not a fan of constitutional carry. Just because one is able to buy a gun and carry it however s/he wants to in a constitutional carry state, it doesn't mean that s/he is safe or qualified to do so. Trust me, I have a few friends that are gun owners that I cringe at the thought of them carrying a weapon for a myriad or reasons.
I agree but as a friend when I see another friend that is carrying or talking about it I do my best to help them do the right thing. I have brought a few anti gunners to the light here recently. All it takes is that first shot they fire if they put it down and walk away then you know they are not going to do it. But when they just keep pulling the trigger with a big grin on their face and I get the wow that was fun. It was all worth it i have yet to have one just fire one shot.
When you think about it, Delaware already has Constitutional carry in the way of Open carry. Anyone not prohibited can already purchase a handgun and carry it on their hip.
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Open Carry not permitted in City of Dover, without a Concealed Carry Permit. I have read that some people have gotten written permission from the former Police Chief Hosfelt to open carry there.
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Open Carry not permitted in City of Dover, without a Concealed Carry Permit. I have read that some people have gotten written permission from the former Police Chief Hosfelt to open carry there.
That's not true any longer and hasn't been for about a year.
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My point is that if you are going to carry at all, you're going to have to meet higher standards for personal responsibility, situational awareness, and personal judgment. Unfortunately not all people who own guns are responsible notwithstanding their ability to pass an NICS check after filling out a 4473.
Sure, what is your "higher standard"? What part of the Constitution dictates the authority to set and manage any higher standard? Who's "higher standard" do we go by, yours or mine, the 85 year old thats been through hell and back, can think faster than any of us but cant move that fast, or the 18 year old 2 year in Army Ranger that can move 10x as fast as they can think critically?
If you want some form of infringement, apply it to OC, again, if you are broadcasting to the world you are armed, you better be 100% alert and proficient when your outside of your home. That is when you should be held to a higher standard
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I accept the existence (likely to continue) of training requirements for concealed carry.
However, as both a 2nd Amendment purist and a capital-L Leftist, I am opposed to any requirement that costs money to exercise a Constitutional right.
To me, the cost of the application fee, fingerprinting, newspaper ad, and required training are a "poll tax" that unfairly deprives the poor of their 2nd Amendment rights.
If a state wants to require any expenditure for a permit, even just a fee to apply for it, that should be banned by federal preemption of state gun laws.
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The "higher standard" is what you could face before a judge and jury. Cribbing from Andrew Branca's Law of Self Defense, how would you measure up to the principles of Innocence, Imminence (AOJ), Avoidance (+P), Proportionality, and Reasonableness. Were you bound by Duty to Retreat or protected by Stand Your Ground? Were you in a No Carry zone? This considerations extend well beyond situation awareness and proficiency.
You can argue that Vermont's Constitutional Carry has worked well but will that extend to other states?
Personal responsibilty and judgment are not always stellar in the general population. Does everyone who picks a gun and goes to town thinking about the ramifications? When the situation escalates, are you aware of and apply AOJ+P APJ+P? Not if you are oblivious.
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The "higher standard" is what you could face before a judge and jury. Cribbing from Andrew Branca's Law of Self Defense, how would you measure up to the principles of Innocence, Imminence (AOJ), Avoidance (+P), Proportionality, and Reasonableness. Were you bound by Duty to Retreat or protected by Stand Your Ground? Were you in a No Carry zone? This considerations extend well beyond situation awareness and proficiency.
You can argue that Vermont's Constitutional Carry has worked well but will that extend to other states?
Personal responsibilty and judgment are not always stellar in the general population. Does everyone who picks a gun and goes to town thinking about the ramifications? When the situation escalates, are you aware of and apply APJ+P? Not if you are oblivious.
A- A jury can nullify any of those if they feel like it
B- Branca's law is a real law, or his interpretation of a law?
C- How would you measure up given the no one can forsee the accurate future?
D- Retreat or stand your ground - Jury nullification again
E - No carry zone - Jury Nullification -
F - NOTHING goes beyond situation awareness, you cant bring up the 1st 5 parts as a point only to say its beyond SA- What you pointed to, is exactly what SA is.
G - Exactly what part of the 2A states ANY of that is required?
back to the point, Everyone wants to impose their opinion on everybody else, for the "good of the community". If you worried about APJ+P, than that is the ONLY pre-requisite for a CCW, online, and free. simple, live and let live
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@LostM. My post was simply advice and perspective not a pre-requisite for carrying a firearm iaw the 2nd Amendment. I support your RKBA. Carry safe.
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you have a better chance of seeing the CCW Reciprocity Act before DE enacts constitutional carry.
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I have a feeling that even with the many co-sponsors of HB 38 and S 446, and the fact that Trump said he will sign The National Concealed carry Reciprocity Act of 2017 into law, that Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell will not let these bill come to the floor for an up or down vote. Bills will die in committees once again this year.
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I don't believe the long held requirement to obtain a permit is based on political leaning. There was, and is, a constituent that carries illegally for nefarious reasons. The permit process aids LE by providing an additional strong charge to discourage unlawful behavior. So, similar to OldGray, I accept the current process.
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I am not sure how "strong" that charge is, considering the number of folks arrested for that charge -- and the fact that it seems to be the first charge either thrown out or pled down.
I'm fine with the current system, but I do wonder about the changes that have occurred in that process. For example, I don't recall high levels of ridiculous CCW activity before the training requirement was implemented.
So, as I've said before -- as bad as some may think that our system is, tinkering with it is most likely to result in no-carry zones, including the dreaded "signs" fiasco, and possibly other restrictions/problems. Remember, the boys and girls in Dover aren't smart enough to make things better ...
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Frankly, I'm not a fan of constitutional carry. Just because one is able to buy a gun and carry it however s/he wants to in a constitutional carry state, it doesn't mean that s/he is safe or qualified to do so. Trust me, I have a few friends that are gun owners that I cringe at the thought of them carrying a weapon for a myriad or reasons.
I agree but as a friend when I see another friend that is carrying or talking about it I do my best to help them do the right thing. I have brought a few anti gunners to the light here recently. All it takes is that first shot they fire if they put it down and walk away then you know they are not going to do it. But when they just keep pulling the trigger with a big grin on their face and I get the wow that was fun. It was all worth it i have yet to have one just fire one shot.
When you think about it, Delaware already has Constitutional carry in the way of Open carry. Anyone not prohibited can already purchase a handgun and carry it on their hip.
exactly. you cannot be for open carry and oppose constitutional carry. putting a 1mm thick piece of cloth over the weapon changes no creator endowed, constitutionally enumerated rights
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I don't understand gun owners who would be against Constitutional Carry. This is the goal we should all be working toward. There is too much fear of "what if".
How can mandatory training and license fees not be an "infringement"
I could almost see this mentality years ago, but we now have 12 diverse states with permitless concealed carry and there have been no issues. The sky has not fallen. Just like it didn't when "shall issue" was rolling out.
Bottom line is individual responsibility.
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Our requirements are a bit cumbersome, but when you get that permit, we know you at least understand which end the bullet comes out of. Not necessarily so with 'no permit required'. I also know that I am most likely a better shot than those carrying illegally.
BT
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I'm all for Constitutional Carry. Anyone who hasn't been extremely sheltered knows how and what a handgun does and 2 minutes on the Internet shows how they function. There will always be idiots, there will always be morons, there will always be accidents but the people shouldn't be restricted from ownership or the ability to protect themselves because of those people... Even though those people could be a threat not just to themselves but to us as well. I've always been against safety laws that restricts the general public in someway because of a small minority of brilliant people. I agree with Clarence that we should all be looking towards the right to own and carry anywhere we want without a permit with vsry few exceptions.