Delaware Concealed Carry Forum
State News & Gun News => Delaware News => Topic started by: Gary Slider on December 08, 2017, 12:48:04 AM
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At least that is the way I read it. Link to Ruling
https://courts.delaware.gov/Opinions/Download.aspx?id=266310
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It's a long read! However, in the beginning of the decision, the court says that the lower court decision is reversed and that the two regulations prohibiting firearms in state parks and state forests are unconstitutional. So, it sounds to me that you can now carry in state parks, both concealed and open in compliance with state laws.
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Yes. A long read. I did get through it and was very happy that the judges were very clear that the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is a fundamental right and always has been since Delaware was established and that this is a natural right of self preservation.
This and the 2014 decision put our rights on solid ground.
It also didn't hurt that the states arguments bordered on the ridiculous as did the superior court decision that was overturned.
The dissent was interesting as they really want us to allow unelected state employees to decide how we should excercise our rights. Also found the references to the NRA saying basically we should discount anything they work for. Was amused to see the majority blew that off completely.
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Good news. Long, but interesting to read the majority and even the dissenting opinion.
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Now it's in the News-Urinal (http://www.delawareonline.com/story/news/local/2017/12/08/gun-ban-delaware-state-parks-unconstitutional-high-court-rules/934091001/):
"As of 4 p.m. Thursday, it is now legal to bring firearms into state parks and forests."
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Yes Virginia, there really is a Santa Claus...
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Gun ban in Delaware state parks is unconstitutional, high court rules
(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/72232bbbfcae86c05b9be39dd13c07698b803b00/c=0-0-533-401&r=x408&c=540x405/local/-/media/2016/12/30/Wilmington/Wilmington/636187035561678117-Park.jpg)
Delaware Supreme Court justices have ruled that a weapons ban in Delaware’s state parks and forests is unconstitutional.
As of 4 p.m. Thursday, it is now legal to bring firearms into state parks and forests. Since the 1960s, a ban on firearms has prohibited people, even those with a permit, to carry a concealed, deadly weapon on thousands of acres of state-owned parks.
A similar ban concerning state forests followed in the 1970s. Those rules did include exceptions for hunting, which did not apply to people carrying concealed weapons for self-defense.
<snip>
The court’s recent decision was a close call. Justices ruled 3-2 Thursday to reverse the Superior Court’s ruling to uphold the ban, which is based on Delaware Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Control and Department of Agriculture regulations.
<snip
The justices wrote in their decision that state agencies had no authority to pass regulations that contradict residents’ rights under the state Constitution and that “the regulations completely eviscerate a core right to keep and bear arms for defense of self and family outside the home – a right this court has already recognized.”
The justices cited a previous case involving the Wilmington Housing Authority, when the organization tried to prohibit residents from carrying guns in common areas of its facilities. The state Supreme Court ruled in 2014 to overturn that ban.
<snip>
While updated permit counts were not immediately available, Department of Justice spokesman Carl Kanefsky said 8,522 people applied for a permit or permit renewal in 2016 – marking a 188 percent increase in applications from the previous year.
More at: http://www.delawareonline.com/story/news/local/2017/12/08/gun-ban-delaware-state-parks-unconstitutional-high-court-rules/934091001/
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Having slogged through the Majority opinion and skimmed the Minority dissent, the Majority argued that the DNREC & DOA regs violate Section 20 of the DE Bill of Rights. The Minority asserted that the 40 year regs hadn't been challenged before, and therefore shouldn't be challenged now. The only cogent dissent is that camping parties with alcoholic drinking occur in the forest areas and a situation could arise.
My favorite dissent line is this:
It also comes with some chutzpah for the Judiciary, which works in a place where firearm possession is denied to all but security staff, to demand that generations of seasoned administrators parade social science research supporting their common sense determination that our Parks and Forests will be safer if they are as free as possible from the presence of deadly force. In other words, the dissenters are inherently smarter than everyone else and shouldn't have to prove their case. (The Majority did quote the 'camp at your own risk' clause in the reg).
If I understand the original case, the Boyces et al wanted to conceal carry in the State parks and forests. The Superior Court said no but the Supreme Court opened up those areas to all persons not prohibited.
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I love this smackdown by the majority regarding the minority's put down of the NRA:
LMAO on this:
"159 As to our dissenting colleagues, we ignore many of their comments suggesting that any law, constitutional provision, or decision announcing or upholding the rights to keep and bear arms -- including Section 20, Doe, and Heller -- must be discounted as the product of a politically motivated, NRA-driven agenda. But we do pause to observe that the dissent’s approach -- were it to have been the law -- would have troubling implications beyond this case. If, as they posit, agency regulations (such as those eviscerating fundamental Section 20 rights) are immune from any constitutional scrutiny, what principles could the Court then invoke if an agency were to ban the press from open meetings, or limit political or other speech in such areas?"
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We all need to send Francis Pileggi a thank you card. This is the second time that he has successfully defended our rights in front of the state supreme court. Maybe he'll do the same in a SCOTUS case some day.
Let's schedule a picnic in one of the parks come spring time.
Think I just may take the dog out for a long walk in Brandywine Creek State Park this weekend.
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Let's schedule a picnic in one of the parks come spring time.
Fantastic idea.
Even better: let's do it sometime soon, gather together as many people as we can, and invite the News-Journal to cover it.
Mrs. OGG and I are definitely there...
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Let's schedule a picnic in one of the parks come spring time.
Fantastic idea.
Even better: let's do it sometime soon, gather together as many people as we can, and invite the News-Journal to cover it.
Mrs. OGG and I are definitely there...
I'd try and be there as well.
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Keep in mind, folks, we were one vote short of losing this one. The way things go in the Peoples Republic of DE, that could change on something as important. Be vigilant!!!
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Keep in mind, folks, we were one vote short of losing this one. The way things go in the Peoples Republic of DE, that could change on something as important. Be vigilant!!!
Good point Bill. Current court is 3 Democrats 2 Republicans.
Karen Valihura, Republican wrote the order and was joined by Gary Traynor, Republican and James Vaughn, Democrat.
The Constitution of Delaware requires this split by party so with Democrats holding the majority of voter registration, it must be 3-2. That means that if a Republican retires she/he must be replaced with a Republican irregardless of which party is in power. If not for this we would have five Democrats. Lucky for us Vaughn is a conservative Democrat.
Justice Karen Valihura wrote for the majority and it is a masterpiece. She has a great understanding of how our rights have developed and how we got to where are today.
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When it comes to carry rights, an inch is as good as a mile. One vote majority is a win. I'll take it.
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Let's schedule a picnic in one of the parks come spring time.
Fantastic idea.
Even better: let's do it sometime soon, gather together as many people as we can, and invite the News-Journal to cover it.
Mrs. OGG and I are definitely there...
I'd try and be there as well.
Count me in.
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Let's schedule a picnic in one of the parks come spring time.
Fantastic idea.
Even better: let's do it sometime soon, gather together as many people as we can, and invite the News-Journal to cover it.
Mrs. OGG and I are definitely there...
I'd try and be there as well.
Count me in.
According to the dissenters, it's going to be a wild picnic:
"The Regulations serve an important governmental purpose and do not burden appellants’ Section 20 rights more than necessary. When people come together in Parks and Forests for games and recreation, emotions can run high. When folks camp, they sometimes drink,24 including at events within the Parks like beer and wine festivals.25 When folks drink and carouse, they sometimes get jealous and angry. When folks play or attend sporting events, spirits run high and sometimes out of control. When folks get emotional around guns, things can get dangerous fast. When folks camp, there are no gun lockers, and they are near other visitors.26 There are no natural boundaries in Parks and
Forests signaling areas where park-goers can find safety from gunfire or natural barriers that stop flying bullets or arrows. These and other common sense reasons support the decisions of generations of governors and cabinet secretaries that the Regulations advance the public purposes served by our Parks and Forests, and facilitate the safe enjoyment of these public spaces by families and children."
It is laughable except this was actually written by Leo Strine, Chief Justice of the State of Delaware, and he actually thinks like this. Scary
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Maybe they should ban "games and recreation" from parks. Seems they are the problem.
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Maybe they should ban "games and recreation" from parks. Seems they are the problem.
Maybe they should ban people!
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Looks like Governor Carney is looking for a way around this. http://delawarepublic.org/post/delaware-supreme-court-rules-end-state-parks-gun-ban
It's obvious he never even read the decision as he mentioned the 2nd Amendment. This decision is of course based on Article 20 of the State Constitution.
The dissenters in the decision made a bizarre assertion that Article 20 was somehow invalid because back in the 1980's the NRA pushed for it. This is a disturbing idea to come from a Chief Justice. Thank God this was a minority opinion and carries no weight.
But the implications of this type of thinking are disturbing to our system of jurisprudence and a threat to the people's democratic right to form grass root organizations for political change. Even "liberals" should see that this could cut both ways
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New (temporary) regulations have been issued:
http://www.dnrec.delaware.gov/Info/Documents/Secretarys-Order-No-2017-P-0030.pdf
In short:
Delaware resident + CCDW permit= carry wherever you want to. Just show your permit.
Everyone else can't carry in the specifically designated areas which must be posted as such.
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Outrageous!! I guess we will be back in court. Looks like out of state residents can't carry and they think that gun carriers need to be background checked. Wow. Did they read the decision? What part of the words
"Fundamental right" do they not understand?
They put this through as an "emergency" rule. Are you kidding? Law abiding citizens excercising their God given rights is an "emergency"? Wow
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Everything I read said that as long as I have a current carry permit I can CCW in any Delaware park or forest. Reading the emergency park rules and just for clarification, do I need to go to the office show my permit then I'm allowed to walk the park, or can I walk the park and not worry about showing my permit unless I'm asked to by a LEO? Who has the right to ask to see my permit? I kind of got the impression that I won't have to do anything unless I'm approached by a LEO. Or maybe I need to read more. On a side note let me know when the party starts at the park. Count me in. Lums Pond sounds like a nice place to do this, with maybe a follow up at Killens than Seashore parks or Trap Pond..
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New (temporary) regulations have been issued:
http://www.dnrec.delaware.gov/Info/Documents/Secretarys-Order-No-2017-P-0030.pdf
In short:
Delaware resident + CCDW permit= carry wherever you want to. Just show your permit.
Everyone else can't carry in the specifically designated areas which must be posted as such.
Not entirely. This para in F&W regs (http://regulations.delaware.gov/AdminCode/title7/3000/3900%20Wildlife/3908.shtml#TopOfPage) is unchanged
8.3.4.2 It shall be unlawful for any person to possess a rifled firearm of any description at any time on those lands bordering the Chesapeake and Delaware Canal and licensed to the Department by the Government of the United States for wildlife management purposes, except that muzzleloaders and shotguns with rifle barrels may be used during deer seasons when it is lawful to use those firearms.
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21.1.4 Delaware residents holding an active current license to carry a concealed deadly weapon may carry a firearm within areas administered by the Division, including designated areas upon showing the license to Parks authorities.
21.1.7 Any person possessing a firearm shall display identification upon entry and upon request, sufficient to enable a law enforcement officer to undertake a background check.
My question is, do we have to show our license to park personal and then wait for law enforcement to arrive and show it to them and wait for them to do a background check?
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21.1.7 Any person possessing a firearm shall display identification upon entry and upon request, sufficient to enable a law enforcement officer to undertake a background check.
My question is, do we have to show our license to park personal and then wait for law enforcement to arrive and show it to them and wait for them to do a background check?
The key word is “sufficient”. Our permits are sufficient by definition; the State issued them as our ID. Verification by LEO is not required.
Also regarding “on entry”, I have found that Lums Pond entry stations are usually unstaffed. Based on the numbers I have seen, we represent 1 out of 1000 DE residents. I expect that any attendant will not have us
on their radar. This year, I plan to buy a senior park pass and will display both cards “upon entry” if there is anyone to notice.
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So as I unerstan this, you have to wear a sign that says, "I HAVE A GUN"...before you can carry that 'concealed' firearm???? Do these politicians take brilliant pills every morning??? And we will be so much safer, having 'no gun' zones where all the people are.
Bill
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Just found out that there is a public hearing tonight regarding the new rules.
Public Hearing on Proposed Regulations regarding firearms possession within Delaware state parks, wildlife areas, and state forests.
New Castle County: Thursday, February 15, 6pm, DNREC offices, 391 Lukens Drive, New Castle.
Hope that someone can go.
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The meeting was a workshop which allows a discussion rather than a hearing. Deputy AG Durstein presented the modified regs. (http://www.dnrec.delaware.gov/Admin/Documents/DNREC-DDA-Proposed-regulations-for-firearms-possession-in-state-parks-and-forests.pdf) Open carry still permitted except in designated areas. DE CCDW amd concealed carry permit holders from reciprocating states will also be allowed to carry concealed in designated areas which include specific buildings, life-guarded beaches and the Lums Pond campground among others. They dropped the "show permit upon entry" but left in "upon request". Other workshops will be held followed by the hearing.
Also in attendance were Fish & Wildlife, Agriculture, and State Lands reps.
Mentioned in the presentation was a ban on carry in schools. In a post-presentation discussion, this 'ban' is apparently based not on the law (18 USC 922 q2a-b and 11 Del C. §1457) but on "no guns" signs posted at the individual schools. The Deputy AG said he would clarify.
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Mentioned in the presentation was a ban on carry in schools. In a post-presentation discussion, this 'ban' is apparently based not on the law (18 USC 922 q2a-b and 11 Del C. §1457) but on "no guns" signs posted at the individual schools. The Deputy AG said he would clarify.
So, in essence, there is no "legal ban" because signs don't carry force of law.
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Mentioned in the presentation was a ban on carry in schools. In a post-presentation discussion, this 'ban' is apparently based not on the law (18 USC 922 q2a-b and 11 Del C. §1457) but on "no guns" signs posted at the individual schools. The Deputy AG said he would clarify.
So, in essence, there is no "legal ban" because signs don't carry force of law.
I was advised that the law allows concealed carry in DE schools but that many schools have signs and some have metal detectors.
Here's a short video (https://blutube.policeone.com/videos/2098816784001/) on Concealed Carry in Schools by LtCol David Grossman, author of the books On Killing, and On Combat,, and the article On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1687633/posts)
Definitely worth watching the video and reading the sheepdog article.
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Every politician, educator and parent needs to watch that video.