Delaware Concealed Carry Forum

CCW Methods & Issues => General CCW Discussion => Topic started by: Djw2033 on May 15, 2020, 07:24:43 PM

Title: Question
Post by: Djw2033 on May 15, 2020, 07:24:43 PM
Hello,
I see it’s been brought up many times but can someone explain to me where in the delcode it states you need to know someone for a year or can’t be family ?

In Delaware constitution it says:
(2) At the same time the person shall file, with the Prothonotary, a certificate of 5 respectable citizens of the county in which the applicant resides at the time of filing the application. The certificate shall clearly state that the applicant is a person of full age, sobriety and good moral character, that the applicant bears a good reputation for peace and good order in the community in which the applicant resides, and that the carrying of a concealed deadly weapon by the applicant is necessary for the protection of the applicant or the applicant’s property, or both. The certificate shall be signed with the proper signatures and in the proper handwriting of each such respectable citizen. 


No where on that or on the reference form itself does it say it can’t be family..

Is there an addendum anyone is aware of?  I ask the AG through email as well
Title: Re: Question
Post by: SturmRugerSR9 on May 15, 2020, 10:32:12 PM
Your right. this has been covered before. I took the liberty of copying and pasting it to this question:

2. Background Verification  Fingerprints must be taken by State Bureau of Identification within 45 days prior to filing the application.  For information about hours please call the State Bureau of Identification (SBI) at (302)739-2528.  You are required to submit proof of payment for your fingerprinting, at the time of filing.
Note: If you have been a Delaware resident for less than five (5) years then please submit a certified driving record from your previous state(s) of residence to avoid any delay in processing your application.
3. Have the reference questionnaire completed by five (5) citizens from the County in which you reside.  The citizen cannot be related or reside at the same address as the applicant.  The citizen must know the applicant for a period of no less than one (1) year.
4. Complete the application and have it notarized.  A notary is available at each Prothonotary’s Office. (There is no fee for this service)
5. Photographs  Include two (2) color 2”x 2” official passport photographs of the applicant
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Djw2033 on May 15, 2020, 10:50:41 PM
No I get that and it’s all well and good.

But they can put anything they want on the pages right ?

It doesn’t say anything in the Posted del code / constitution .. so they can’t just add there own provisions without adding an addendum properly.

What’s the point of the code if they can add things that aren’t in there ?
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Clarence on May 16, 2020, 02:00:23 AM
They get to do it because Delaware is “may issue” meaning they can reject any application if the judge does not feel you are a suitable person or if you don’t have a compelling reason to carry. Because the law requires that the five affiants swear that you are of good character, the investigators from the AGs office who make the recommendation to the judge want to see that you have known them at least a year.  If challenged on this in court, I rather suspect it would be upheld. 


Actually it is much easier now than in the past.  Not too many years ago you either had to carry large sums of money or know someone to get the license. Also it used to be (since 1911) a requirement that the character references were from your election district. 

It is quite a pain for new residents but actually much better than in years past.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Just Bill on May 16, 2020, 11:24:06 AM
If you wish to protest, it is your right, but don't expect that permit any time soon.  You are dealing with politicians, 'nuff said.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Djw2033 on May 16, 2020, 02:57:22 PM
Has anyone been denied because of there references not meeting These standards ?
Title: Re: Question
Post by: SturmRugerSR9 on May 16, 2020, 11:00:11 PM
Your question needs to be addressed to the Attorney Generals Office and/or the Superior Court. They are the ones you have to please.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Radnor on May 18, 2020, 02:49:33 PM
Your question needs to be addressed to the Attorney Generals Office

The AG's office will not be cooperative I believe.

I believe (ON HERE) Marc challenged it.  If I recall a lawyer from NJ now Del resident.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: SturmRugerSR9 on May 19, 2020, 01:59:17 PM
3. Have the reference questionnaire completed by five (5) citizens from the County in which you reside.  The citizen cannot be related or reside at the same address as the applicant.  The citizen must know the applicant for a period of no less than one (1) year.

As this is clearly stated, there should be no question. You may no agree, but you are not compelled to agree, but you are compelled to comply, if you want a DECCW. It doesn't take a law degree to figure that out.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Radnor on May 19, 2020, 08:13:28 PM
3. Have the reference questionnaire completed by five (5) citizens from the County in which you reside.  The citizen cannot be related or reside at the same address as the applicant.  The citizen must know the applicant for a period of no less than one (1) year.

As this is clearly stated, there should be no question. You may no agree, but you are not compelled to agree, but you are compelled to comply, if you want a DECCW. It doesn't take a law degree to figure that out.

OK, so I'll ask now too.....  WHERE IN DEL CODE 1441 does it have above in RED
Under 1441 at  https://delcode.delaware.gov/title11/c005/sc07/index.shtml (https://delcode.delaware.gov/title11/c005/sc07/index.shtml) for the references it has and I quote....

(2) At the same time the person shall file, with the Prothonotary, a certificate of 5 respectable citizens of the county in which the applicant resides at the time of filing the application. The certificate shall clearly state that the applicant is a person of full age, sobriety and good moral character, that the applicant bears a good reputation for peace and good order in the community in which the applicant resides, and that the carrying of a concealed deadly weapon by the applicant is necessary for the protection of the applicant or the applicant’s property, or both. The certificate shall be signed with the proper signatures and in the proper handwriting of each such respectable citizen.

I realize there's lots of words and I might be tired but I cannot find the residency or 1 year minimum.

I do realize we are a MAY ISSUE State.  And if you dont play by their rules most likely will be denied.  Then would have to get representation and go before the judge to appeal.  Bake to the ops question, WHERE IS IT IN THE LAW?  That's all the OP is asking and  knowing a few of the special investigators, know what they are asking for.


On the reference questionnaire it states cannot be related.  Where is that in the code?  They could print on the questionnaire YOU must fill it out in green ink and the person you give it to must fill it out in purple....


The BS the OP is questioning is on the instructions page (ALONG with green & purple ink - you guys missed it!) and NOT in the CODE.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: SturmRugerSR9 on May 19, 2020, 10:45:25 PM
Sounds like a lot of BS to me. Either the guy will fill out the application, or he won't. If he fills it out improperly he may forfeit the ability to get a DECCW. He is not hurting anyone but himself. Like cutting off his nose to spite his face as the old saying goes.
 Since the 5 references are suppose to be a reference to some ones character, I'd think you'd have to know someone at least a year to really know them. I have seen people that I have known for more than a year and wouldn't give them a good reference for anything, but certainly would not give reference knowing someone for less that a year. Another old saying, a tiger seldom changes it's stripes. People seldom change their attitudes or personalities either.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Djw2033 on May 20, 2020, 12:56:54 AM
My argument to that would be is it better to know someone for 10 years but only interact with them 5 times ?

Or someone you known for 6 months and see 4 times a week?

Are they going to have a “how much do you know about your reference” spectrum next ? :P ::) ::)
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Cbmarine on May 20, 2020, 02:11:48 AM
My argument to that would be is it better to know someone for 10 years but only interact with them 5 times ?

Or someone you known for 6 months and see 4 times a week?

Are they going to have a “how much do you know about your reference” spectrum next ? :P ::) ::)
FWIW, back in 2012, I had only known two of my references for six months.  I added “daily contact” to the references. I don’t recall the one year rule back then. It may help if the OP can find references who hold CCDW permits. 
Title: Re: Question
Post by: SturmRugerSR9 on May 20, 2020, 02:44:48 PM
Back when I got my DECCW, I sent in 6 reference, because depending on when they processed the application, one of my references would be in Florida for the winter. The people I had as references I had know 5 of them for 20 years or more, and 1 of them for 5 years, and had worked with him for 5 years. 1 of them was a retired police officer and 1 was a long time fire chief, 1 a retired school teacher, 1 a well known business owner, and 1 a neighbor, retired USAF, and small business owner living 2 houses from mine.

Now they are strong references.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: RLS on May 20, 2020, 08:23:07 PM
Djw2033 has a valid concern. By what authority are the rules changed? We are expected to abide by the law, the same is expected of the state.

Contact your state senator and representative and ask them.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Radnor on May 20, 2020, 08:27:14 PM
Djw2033 has a valid concern. By what authority are the rules changed? We are expected to abide by the law, the same is expected of the state.


THANK YOU!!!  That's what I was pointing out too.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Just Bill on May 20, 2020, 11:05:24 PM
I don't think any of my referrals were ever contacted.  If they were they never said.

Bill
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Clarence on May 21, 2020, 12:29:57 PM
MODIFIED SUBJECT RESULT OF MERGING TOPICS Radnor
I have probably signed for about 10.  And refused 2 or 3.   Never contacted.

I think there is a belief out there that if you have retired police, lawyers, etc that you stand a better chance.  I have never seen any difference that the occupational status of affiants makes any difference now days. ( it definitely did 20+ years ago). 

My references included janitors, security guards and bus drivers. I received my license in 9 weeks. 

I know a guy ( that  I signed for) had 2 retired police and a paramedic.  He took 4 1/2 months.

I do know a guy who got a call from AG office requesting he provide an other as one of his was “not good”.  He provided another ( me) and was approved.

I guess the the one year thing by the AG office in their mind is a form of due diligence that they are
abiding by the statutory language of “good character”.   Doesn’t seem fair to new residents but that is the way it is

 Might be able to appeal this as the AG only provides a recommendation to the judge.  Although the judge almost always goes by this, you might be able to appeal directly to the judge.  Having had a license in previous state MIGHT help.  Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: SturmRugerSR9 on May 21, 2020, 01:34:23 PM
As stated earlier by Clarence, Delaware is a "May Issue" State, and that in itself gives those responsible for issuing permits a certain amount of leeway causing gray areas. It is not a black or white issue . What needs to happen is for Delaware to become a "Must Issue", the chances of that happening is little to non.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: SturmRugerSR9 on May 21, 2020, 01:44:20 PM
MODIFIED SUBJECT RESULT OF MERGING TOPICS Radnor
Have to agree with Clarence. So if you think you can waltz into Delaware and apply for, and get, a DECCW right away, your mistake is coming to Delaware, or at least not doing some research first. As for me, I think a person needs to establish themselves and a person of good character first by living clean, stating out of trouble, and establishing a good relationship with others at work and in the community. But that's just me.
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Clarence on May 21, 2020, 07:11:11 PM
I spoke to Jeff Hauge of DSSA at the Milford rally and he feels that we must leave the CCDW system alone at this point. 

Back in the early 2000s we came very close to getting “shall issue”.  The objections of the AG office and some police agencies were that shall issue would allow nefarious characters to get licensed as long as they had no disqualified convictions.  A sort of “gentleman’s agreement” ensued whereby unless the applicant had some red flags in their background , they would be approved assuming they were not disqualified by law.

this set up the current system that is technically labeled shall issue “in practice”by some.  The only person that I know from first-hand knowledge that has been denied is someone who had the police called to their house numerous times for domestic disturbances but was never tried and convicted for anything.

I have read that some people Have been denied or have been told to wait another year due to past drunk driving convictions That would of course not disqualify them from owning a firearm.

In the 1990s they were only a couple of hundred carry licenses in the state now there are about 20,000 so the system although not perfect is about the best we’re going to get in Delaware.

Another reason by the way that going to court over this probably will not work is that Open Carry has been unanimously declared to be a fundamental constitutional right so it is probably going to fall on deaf ears that the right to keep and bear arms even under article 20 of the of the Delaware state constitution is being violated for concealed carry.  No Delaware court has ever held that concealed carry is a constitutional right.

Title: Re: Question
Post by: Cbmarine on May 22, 2020, 02:24:54 AM
MODIFIED SUBJECT RESULT OF MERGING TOPICS Radnor

This thread and the Question thread got tangled. Perhaps an admin or the posters can remedy. 
Title: Re: Question
Post by: Radnor on May 22, 2020, 04:07:07 PM
This thread and the Question thread got tangled. Perhaps an admin or the posters can remedy. 

MERGED
Title: Re: Question
Post by: SturmRugerSR9 on May 22, 2020, 04:08:18 PM
Right again Clarence.