Delaware Concealed Carry Forum
CCW Methods & Issues => No Carry Locations => Topic started by: muleman88 on December 05, 2010, 11:43:15 PM
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Delaware rules for where you cant carry? I have been reading ayoob"s book " the gun digest of concealed carry" and it keeps telling me to find out the legal rules for my area. Is this written on the sates website maybe ???. Since things are subject to change I would like to see it somewhere to follow. Also dosent a sign have to be posted when you cant carry in a place of buisness, such as a store ? I was at a place yesterday that is posted on this site as a no carry area but I looked and their wasnt any signs at the door that I went in. I kept my eyes open but never seen a thing stating I couldnt.
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Great questions.
You can find a well-maintained, frequently updated set of the laws of all 50 states here (http://www.handgunlaw.us). The Delaware page includes a list of the places where state law says you cannot carry.
However, you are responsible to verify the laws yourself: just because a place isn't listed on a Web site doesn't make it legal. When I have a question, I read the law itself and/or ask my lawyer*.
As for other places, IANAL ("I Am Not A Lawyer") and YMMV ("Your Mileage May Vary"), but I don't think signs at private businesses -- like the crappy little sign at a local movie theater or the "Code of Conduct" at a local shopping mall -- have force of law. My lawyer* agrees: he advises me to leave voluntarily and politely if asked, and assures me that I am unlikely to face criminal prosecution if I ignore fail to notice the signs.
(The "DO NOT ENTER WITH A LOADED GUN" sign at Miller's Guns has, if not force of law, force of arms behind it, so I would suggest you obey that one).
*Speaking of lawyers: who are you going to call? In other words, have you chosen your criminal defense attorney (and does he or she know you have chosen them)?
This is a decision you should make & prepare for today, not at 4AM in the Wawa parking lot.
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Thanks old grey! The more and more I look for things the more complicated it seems to get. You have convinced me to look for a lawyer. Now I need to find one that is good at dealing with this stuff lol.
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Not that I would ever disobey any posted laws (including the speed limit LOL), but I've been in and out of Target at the Christiana Mall and there are NO signs if you enter through Target.... I mean, this is just my observation.
:D
Moosie
Also, just a thought here... if you're concealing properly, no one should ever know that you're carrying in which case it shouldn't be an issue.
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Not that I would ever disobey any posted laws (including the speed limit LOL), but I've been in and out of Target at the Christiana Mall and there are NO signs if you enter through Target.... I mean, this is just my observation.
:D
Moosie
Also, just a thought here... if you're concealing properly, no one should ever know that you're carrying in which case it shouldn't be an issue.
I agree. Im not a "mall" person but this time of year I tend to stop in . There was a store that had a buzzer when you walk in :o. I must admit I got a little nervous when I entered and the buzzer went off. I didnt realize what it was for till the next person walked in behind me. lol
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There was a store that had a buzzer when you walk in :o. I must admit I got a little nervous when I entered and the buzzer went off. I didnt realize what it was for till the next person walked in behind me. lol
When I first started carrying we were going into Best Buys. Wife asked if I was going to set "it" off. I just told her I was carrying a gun, NOT stealing. I was in KoP mall and one store's anti-theft device kept going off, employees just ignored it. Which I was glad of.
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So.. are there alarms that get set off at some stores or is it just bad timing/ faulty alarms?
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Since we're discussing "no carry" locations, I thought I'd throw a couple comments out to the newer "carriers"....
We all know not to carry in a federal building, but remember that the Post Office is a federal building as well.
They've just changed the law to make carrying legal in National Parks (none yet in De). But if you go in their visitor center or other building....you guesses it.....federal building.
Cheers
Lumspond
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I thought DE signed reciprical agrement with SC I just checked both DE and SC website ( planing a trip to FL) and DE honors SC but SC does not honor DE. Whats the deal with that ?
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Personally, I think carrying at the post office is a slippery slope. There is nothing definitive out there saying you can or cant.
Moosie
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Personally, I think carrying at the post office is a slippery slope. There is nothing definitive out there saying you can or cant.
Moosie
I do NOT plan on being a test subject but.... I found an interesting read...
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/usc.cgi?ACTION=RETRIEVE&FILE=$$xa$$busc18.wais&start=1736700&SIZE=6681&TYPE=TEXT (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/usc.cgi?ACTION=RETRIEVE&FILE=$$xa$$busc18.wais&start=1736700&SIZE=6681&TYPE=TEXT)
Sec 930 (d)(3)
There could be other sections I've missed, but... And IANAL
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Neither do I, Radnor. I'm just saying I think it's a slippery slope as their wording is rather vague and open to interpretation.
Moosie
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Sounds to me that if you have a permit then you are lawfuly carrying a firearm.
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Well, it's their language of carrying a firearm "while on official business". That's the slippery slope! What is their definition of "official"? Obviously some could interpret it as being there strictly to conduct business with the postal clerk behind the desk, drop a letter in the slot or to retrieve their own mail. I would think those are all "official" reasons. But, the argument is in other interpretations such as official meaning those of a police type nature.
On one forum, I read where a CCW permit holder asked the post master of his post office if he could legally carry concealed in the post office. The response he got was, "I don't know, I don't care and if you do, I don't want to know". My guess is that this post master represents 90% of the opinion of them. But again, I don't want to find out that my post master is the other 10%.
Moosie
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No, this section was what I was referring to:
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons
in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.
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No, this section was what I was referring to:
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons
in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.
This to me makes it sound like as long as you are lawfully carrying you should be ok. A CCW Permit should cover you.
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Oh, in that case, yes. I would agree.
Moosie
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I've sent the whole section of code off to John Thompson for an opinion.
I see most mornings a guy who is a judge, gonna run it past him too next week.
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If I am interpreting this correctly, it sounds as if you are permitted to carry in ANY federal building, EXCEPT a court house, PROVIDED you are carrying lawfully.
The last section (h) states no one can be convicted for violating this law if the there is no sign posted, conspicuously, at the entrance. I don't go to the post office too often...do they have signs posted?
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That IS what we are questioning. That's the way I read it too.
Now for what you posted (h)..... The post office I go to has a sign up stating robbing a postal employee blah blah blah. There is NOTHING stating I cannot bring a weapon on the property. The other sign is dealing with the items you cannot mail etc.
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I found this on another site:
Post Offices (39 CFR 232.1(l)). While this is been a topic of discussion, whereas carrying is actually permitted by 18 USC 930(p) and, since the Post Office was privatized in 1972, that 39 USC 410 exempts the Post Office from 18 USC 930(p) and that 39 CFR 232.1(l) is a rule from a private entity… It’s recommended that you err on the side of caution and not carry in a Post Office until such a time that the law has been tested and clarified.
39 USC 410 can be found here.
http://vlex.com/vid/sec-application-other-laws-19236178 (http://vlex.com/vid/sec-application-other-laws-19236178)
I am not a lawyer so I do not quite understand everything they are trying to say so judge for yourself.
They are also discussing this topic over here.
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Concealed-carry-in-a-post-office-may-lead-to-rude-awakening (http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Concealed-carry-in-a-post-office-may-lead-to-rude-awakening)
It makes for interesting reading.
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Now for what you posted (h)..... The post office I go to has a sign up stating robbing a postal employee blah blah blah. There is NOTHING stating I cannot bring a weapon on the property. The other sign is dealing with the items you cannot mail etc.
Perhaps the connection I'm going to make within the following question is a bit of a stretch, but...
Do you think our interpretation of the law is accurate, since the post office does not have a sign posted?
I'm thinking, if this law is intended to disallow carrying a weapon in any federal building, then the post office should have a sign posted, since you cannot be convicted unless there is a sign. But, the government doesn't always think logically.
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I frequent three different post offices.... there is NO SIGN anywhere on any of them about not being able to carry a firearm on the property. Oddly enough, there is also no "Federal Property" sign anywhere either.
Moosie
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I found this on another site:
Post Offices (39 CFR 232.1(l)). While this is been a topic of discussion, whereas carrying is actually permitted by 18 USC 930(p) and, since the Post Office was privatized in 1972, that 39 USC 410 exempts the Post Office from 18 USC 930(p) and that 39 CFR 232.1(l) is a rule from a private entity… It’s recommended that you err on the side of caution and not carry in a Post Office until such a time that the law has been tested and clarified.
39 USC 410 can be found here.
http://vlex.com/vid/sec-application-other-laws-19236178 (http://vlex.com/vid/sec-application-other-laws-19236178)
I am not a lawyer so I do not quite understand everything they are trying to say so judge for yourself.
If I am interpreting this 39 USC 410 law correctly...it has no bearing on this law posted by Radnor (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/usc.cgi?ACTION=RETRIEVE&FILE=$$xa$$busc18.wais&start=1736700&SIZE=6681&TYPE=TEXT (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/usc.cgi?ACTION=RETRIEVE&FILE=$$xa$$busc18.wais&start=1736700&SIZE=6681&TYPE=TEXT))
The 39 USC 410 sounds as if it only pertains to the services, employees and contractors of the post office. It doesn't sound as though it has anything to do with their property, and other laws associated to that property. But, maybe I missed something.
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I know, this is the section that is frequently posted and referred to. But, I have something else to add.
(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly
possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in
a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to
do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1
year, or both.
...
(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to--
...
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons
in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.
To me, this sounds as if...you had been hunting, and walked into a post office, with a firearm that you were using for hunting purposed, it is perfectly OK. Keep in mind, as I understand it, Delaware has a handgun hunting season. Now, I am not a hunter, but this is what I have been told. So, walking into a post office, with a handgun, after hunting with that same handgun, should be perfectly legal.
Now for the other part of the wording..."other lawful purposes" means, according to the dictionary, "other reasons allowed by law". So, it could certainly be translated as..."legitimately carrying a firearm for other reasons allowed by law". In Delaware, we are legally allowed to open carry...so I would interpret this as allowing concealed and open carrying inside a post office...the need for CCW would be mute.
Also, keep in mind...no sign = no conviction
I just thought I would throw all of this out there for added discussion, do not take this as legal advice.
As everyone else has done, I, too will add my disclaimer...I AM NOT A LAWYER...if you follow these interpretations, you do so at your own risk.
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Delaware handgun hunting... Single shot or revolvers. Barrel length 5.75 to 12.5 inches. Open carried in either a holster or sling. Shooting straight walled ammo 357 or larger. ;D