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Author Topic: What happens if you are carrying on a no carry location?  (Read 34003 times)
lfcmendes
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« on: March 01, 2009, 07:37:05 PM »

Lets say you are carrying on a no carry location, not on locations prohibited by law, but locations where it is business's policy like the Christiana mall, TGI's,... Is there any legal issues? Can you loose your license? Or you are just asked to leave?
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GunEnvy
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« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2009, 08:17:08 PM »

It depends on the place. Fridays for example could just ask you to leave and not make a big deal out of it. But I if the place wants to they can get the police involved and then I think you are ilegally carriyng and subject to what ever law the officer wants to charge you with.
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Taurus221
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« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2009, 10:11:11 AM »

I have been researching for a little while now and the only thing I can come up with is:

§ 1457. Possession of a weapon in a Safe School and Recreation Zone; class D, E, or F: class A or B misdemeanor.

(a) Any person who commits any of the offenses described in subsection (b) of this section, or any juvenile who possesses a firearm or other deadly weapon, and does so while in or on a "Safe School and Recreation Zone" shall be guilty of the crime of possession of a weapon in a Safe School and Recreation Zone.

(b) The underlying offenses in Title 11 shall be:

(1) Section 1442. -- Carrying a concealed deadly weapon; class G felony; class E felony.

(2) Section 1444. -- Possessing a destructive weapon; class E felony.

(3) Section 1446. -- Unlawfully dealing with a switchblade knife; unclassified misdemeanor.

(4) Section 1448. -- Possession and purchase of deadly weapons by persons prohibited; class F felony.

(5) Section 1452. -- Unlawfully dealing with knuckles-combination knife; class B misdemeanor.

(6) Section 1453. -- Unlawfully dealing with martial arts throwing star; class B misdemeanor.

(c) For the purpose of this section, "Safe School and Recreation Zone" shall mean:

(1) Any building, structure, athletic field, sports stadium or real property owned, operated, leased or rented by any public or private school including, but not limited to, any kindergarten, elementary, secondary or vocational-technical school or any college or university, within 1,000 feet thereof; or

(2) Any motor vehicle owned, operated, leased or rented by any public or private school including, but not limited to, any kindergarten, elementary, secondary, or vocational-technical school or any college or university; or

(3) Any building or structure owned, operated, leased or rented by any county or municipality, or by the State, or by any board, agency, commission, department, corporation or other entity thereof, or by any private organization, which is utilized as a recreation center, athletic field or sports stadium.

(d) Nothing in this section shall be construed to preclude or otherwise limit a prosecution of or conviction for a violation of this chapter or any other provision of law. A person may be convicted both of the crime of possession of a weapon in a Safe School and Recreation Zone and of the underlying offense as defined elsewhere by the laws of the State.

(e) It shall not be a defense to a prosecution for a violation of this section that the person was unaware that the prohibited conduct took place on or in a Safe School and Recreation Zone.

(f) It shall be an affirmative defense to a prosecution for a violation of this section that the weapon was possessed pursuant to an authorized course of school instruction, or for the purpose of engaging in any school-authorized sporting or recreational activity. The affirmative defense established in this section shall be proved by a preponderance of the evidence. Nothing herein shall be construed to establish an affirmative defense with respect to a prosecution for any offense defined in any other section of this chapter.

(g) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution for a violation of this section that the prohibited conduct took place entirely within a private residence, and that no person under the age of 18 was present in such private residence at any time during the commission of the offense. The affirmative defense established in this section shall be proved by the defendant by a preponderance of the evidence. Nothing herein shall be construed to establish an affirmative defense with respect to a prosecution for an offense defined in any other section of this chapter.

(h) This section shall not apply to any law enforcement or police officer, or to any security officer as defined in Chapter 13 of Title 24.

(i) For purposes of this section only, "deadly weapon" shall include any object described in § 222(5) or (11) of this title or BB guns.

(j) The penalty for possession of a weapon in a Safe School and Recreation Zone shall be:

(1) If the underlying offense is a class B misdemeanor, the crime shall be a class A misdemeanor;

(2) If the underlying offense is an unclassified misdemeanor, the crime shall be a class B misdemeanor;

(3) If the underlying offense is a class E, F, or G felony, the crime shall be one grade higher than the underlying offense.

(4) In the event that an elementary or secondary school student possesses a firearm or other deadly weapon in a Safe School and Recreation Zone in addition to any other penalties contained in this section, the student shall be expelled by the local School Board or charter school board of directors for a period of not less than 180 days unless otherwise provided for in federal or state law.

( 70 Del. Laws, c. 213, § 1; 74 Del. Laws, c. 131, §§ 1-4; 76 Del. Laws, c. 326, § 1.; )



I'll get back with anything I find out.
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GunEnvy
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« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2009, 02:43:33 PM »

One thing Taurus, I believe the safe school zone is a federal law and if you are licensed to carry you are exempt from that. However reciprocity does not count.
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Sigarms12
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« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2009, 02:49:19 PM »

Just out of curiosity Gun Envy I was told during my class its still not a good idea to carry in or on school property. Does anyone know where we can find a definitive answer?
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GunEnvy
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« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2009, 04:33:34 PM »

I had seen a letter from the ATF to somebody online. i will try to find it tonight and post the link.
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GunEnvy
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« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2009, 05:10:21 PM »

Found it http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf
Now I'm still looking to see if there is something in the Delaware code about it. Taurus, is that from DE code or federal code? Whether its a good idea or not, I say thats depends on how you feel. With the number of shootings that have occured in schools and churches I don't feel it's a bad idea.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2009, 06:05:19 PM by GunEnvy » Logged

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Taurus221
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« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2009, 07:10:50 PM »

Delaware Code. I got it from the AG's website.

From all that I've read, I believe it to be legal to carry in a school as long as you are licensed, such as a CCW. However, I am still not sure yet.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2009, 07:18:46 PM by Taurus221 » Logged

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CorBon
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« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2009, 07:05:05 AM »

It depends on the place. Fridays for example could just ask you to leave and not make a big deal out of it. But I if the place wants to they can get the police involved and then I think you are ilegally carriyng and subject to what ever law the officer wants to charge you with.
Regarding a privately-owned place (like the Mall), if they ask you to leave, and you refuse to leave – that’s when you are trespassing.  So, your actual (initial) charge would be trespassing, but that’s when the staff would start talking about your “threatening mannerisms” and “how [they] were scared that [you] were going to shoot them.”  And then the add-on charges would start.  Plain and simple, if they ask you to leave, pay your bill, and leave.  Don’t get pissy, don’t make a scene, don’t tell them that their food sucks, don’t tell them that you won’t be coming back, don’t tell them about your 2nd Amendment right – just leave.               
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Very few guns are actually "illegal guns."  A gun misappropriated by a criminal is no more of an "illegal gun" than a stolen car is an "illegal car."
Taurus221
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« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2009, 01:30:15 PM »

Ok all, I got official word form the Delaware AG's office today. You are NOT aloowed to carry in a 'school zone' even if you have a CCW.

The exchange:   
(Question) To whom it may concern,

                                  I am writing to inquire if if it legal to carry a concealed weapon onto Delaware public school grounds if that person holds a CCW permit in Delaware.

Thanks, -----

(Response)    No,  A CCDW Permit does not allow an individual to carry in a school zone.

 

Robert Carmine

Director- Special Investigations

(302) 577-8946

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CorBon
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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2009, 05:09:04 PM »

(Response)    No,  A CCDW Permit does not allow an individual to carry in a school zone.

Quite honestly, I really believe that he too-broadly responded to your direct question of “public school grounds” language. 
   
Assuming that we are simply talking about the "school zone" issue (and thus sidestepping the "school property" issue), the relevant part of the statute reads “[a]ny person who commits any of the offenses described in subsection (b) of this section … and does so while in or on a "Safe School and Recreation Zone" shall be guilty of the crime of possession of a weapon in a Safe School and Recreation Zone.”

Since I am going to assume that you are not a person prohibited, and you’re not talking about carrying switchblades, destructive devices, or throwing stars --  the most likely underlying charge would be (b) (1) Section 1442 (Carrying a concealed deadly weapon).

§ 1442 reads “A person is guilty of carrying a concealed deadly weapon when the person carries concealed a deadly weapon upon or about the person without a license to do so as provided by § 1441 of this title.”

So, back to § 1457 (Possession of a weapon in a Safe School and Recreation Zone), you have to be committing an underlying offense (like carrying without a license), AND do so while in a Safe School and Recreation Zone.  Without an underlying offense, though, the car doesn’t have any gas. 

Now the bad part.  Even if my above statement is correct, that doesn’t mean that you won’t get hassled, and that doesn’t mean that you won’t get charged.  But that doesn’t mean that you are guilty.
 
Take it for whatever it’s worth…
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Very few guns are actually "illegal guns."  A gun misappropriated by a criminal is no more of an "illegal gun" than a stolen car is an "illegal car."
dave_in_delaware
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« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2009, 12:41:27 PM »

Disclaimer: I am NOT a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV....

But from what I understand, you can carry (CC or OC) in Delaware school zones so long as you don't break one of the other "underlying" laws. But that's only for Delaware State Law. You wouldn't be "busted" per State laws just for being in a school zone....

But on the other hand, it's still a FEDERAL law too, so you'd be breaking that one regardless. And they could (and probably would) charge you.... not a good thing.

As far as non-school zones (private property), all they can do is ask you to leave, and/or escort you to the door. And all the police could charge you with is trespassing anyway, which isn't license-revocable as far as I know.
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Dave
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GunEnvy
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« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2009, 12:46:05 PM »

Yes Dave but the BATFE permits CC if you have a permit in that jurisdiction but reciprocity does not count. Now if your in Fridays eating dinner and while getting your wallet out to pay and the manager sees your gun can they prosecute? By law we can not CC in places that post a sign saying they don't permit it. Just wonderin
« Last Edit: March 29, 2009, 12:48:56 PM by GunEnvy » Logged

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Sigarms12
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« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2009, 01:40:36 PM »

I was hoping by now Taurus would have gotten a reply from the AG's office to clarify their first letter how ever they haven't replied.
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" An armed society is a polite society"
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gimme9
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« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2009, 10:35:09 AM »

Ok, this is the situation, lets say you have you CCW license and you work within 1,000 feet from a safe school zone. You carry to work everyday but leave your weapon inside of your car. Are you violating any law?
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