Q from new CA member: Politics in DE & Open Carry

[Paladin4CA]

Hi guys/gals!

I'm in CA, which, like DE, is 1 of only 8 states that are NOT "Shall Issue" and/or Con Carry.

I saw an article a week or two ago re. your Biden and him talking about guns, and it mentioned in passing that he'd address the Open Carry issue. That caught my eye, so I went to OpenCarry.Org and saw that, yes, DE is OC friendly. DE is the ONLY state of the remaining 8 holdouts that is OC friendly.

That made me wonder: Could DE pro-CCWers could use Open Carry events like Ohio did back in '02 or '03 to force OH to pass Shall Issue? Or would OC activism most likely have a backlash that would end up getting OC banned in DE? (Like what happened a few years ago w/CA unloaded Open Carry activists.)

With IL having been forced to issue (they're in the process of going straight from No Issue to Shall Issue), I'd LOVE to see DE switch next.

In CA, and I'd guess all the other holdouts, Carry Cases in federal courts are our only hope. Politically, we can't win Shall Issue at this time....

[Cbmarine]

@paladin4ca, suggest that you post your question on deloc.org, the DE OC forum. I lived in CA several times over the past decades and was always astounded by the naive attitudes of CA types (not you).  You have my sympathies.

DE issues CC permits like a Shall Issue state and the typical DECCW forum member has gone through the DE CCDW process.  IMO, 'rocking the boat' isn't the predominant opinion here.

[Paladin4CA]

Thanks for the reply.

@paladin4ca, suggest that you post your question on deloc.org, the DE OC forum.

I had thought of that. But since this is pro-CCW activism, I thought deccw.com would be more interested. deloc.org might rightly say, "We're pro-OC and we've already got that, so why should we care?"

I lived in CA several times over the past decades and was always astounded by the naive attitudes of CA types (not you).  You have my sympathies.

I appreciate the sympathy, but not sure what you mean re. "naive attitudes of CA types". Maybe best to discuss this via PMs or in separate thread. If the latter, just PM me to let me know you've started a thread (w/its link), and I'll reply.

DE issues CC permits like a Shall Issue state and the typical DECCW forum member has gone through the DE CCDW process.

So DE is like AL was until this month when their new Shall Issue law took place.
http://www.nranews.com/resources/video/alabama-passes-shall-issue-legislation/list/state-legislation-alabama 

Does the DE AG's Office support issuing permits for "self-defense"? If not, sort of "reason" does fly w/them: for example, gun club member who regularly shoots, w/proof of both? lives and/or works in high crime area? documented threat/s against your life along w/police report/s of such? (Your application form calls it the "Reason for Application.")

Do your Superior Court judges accept "self-defense" as sufficient reason for issuing a permit? If not, what sort of reason/s fly w/them?

IMO, 'rocking the boat' isn't the predominant opinion here.

Yes, using Dem vs. Repub as a very crude measure of anti vs pro RKBA, I can see why "rocking the boat" may not be advised.

Is OC legal because of DE's state constitutional RKBA or because of legislation?

Same question re. CCWs.

If both OC and CCWs are based upon legislation, and assuming you've got an anti Gov, and antis majorities in both your Senate and House, best not to risk what you've got to try to get Shall Issue.

If OC is based upon DE state con. RKBA, but CCWs based upon legislation, and assuming the same things re. your Gov and legislature, then it is a judgment call whether to risk "liberal" May Issue CCWs to get solid Shall Issue. For OH, it was worth it since they had No Issue re. CCWs before forcing Shall Issue via OC demonstrations/protests/marches/events.

If both OC and CCWs are based upon DE state con. RKBA, I'm not sure if anything would be at risk by using OH's strategy & tactics to force Shall Issue. Of course, you guys would know better, I'm just analyzing things from the other coast.

[Cbmarine]

DE Constitution; Article I, Bill Of Rights; § 20. Right to keep and bear arms.

Section 20. A person has the right to keep and bear arms for the defense of self, family, home and State, and for hunting and recreational use.

According to my CC class, judges in two of the three counties accept "protection of self and property"

My "naive" comment is based on snail darter, pacific smelt vs. nut trees, and taxation.

Still not convinced to rock the boat; I'll let others chime in..

[Obleo]

I once commented about out-of-staters joining the forum and quickly received return comments about how much they are welcome.  Point made and I agree that they should be.

What was missed was the context of my comment. The lawyer in question (out-of-stater) had no interest in DE concealed carry.  None at all.  He was just trying to sell a book.

I’m not throwing stones at the thread owner here.  However, I am more than just a little suspicious that someone from CA is making efforts to push activism 3000 miles away.  I’ve met and still communicate with several of my State representatives.  There is work to be done but why not through our own community which, by the way, has produced some positive results.

[Bmel17]

I’m not throwing stones at the thread owner here.  However, I am more than just a little suspicious that someone from CA is making efforts to push activism 3000 miles away.  I’ve met and still communicate with several of my State representatives.  There is work to be done but why not through our own community which, by the way, has produced some positive results.

Personally, I think we need all the help we can get.  Special interest groups like the Brady Bunch and MAIG are the ones that write these laws and tailor them to get passed.  We can use our own special interest groups that fight against the tyranny the Antis are trying to shove down our throats.  I also don't have faith in some of our big groups like the NRA.  They will roll over some rights in favor of others and our rights still erode.  No hard line in the sand that they won't stand for IMO.

[Paladin4CA]

What was missed was the context of my comment. The lawyer in question (out-of-stater) had no interest in DE concealed carry.  None at all.  He was just trying to sell a book.

I’m not throwing stones at the thread owner here.  However, I am more than just a little suspicious that someone from CA is making efforts to push activism 3000 miles away.  <snip>  There is work to be done but why not through our own community which, by the way, has produced some positive results.

A few thoughts: (1) I could easily have not stated I was out-of-state and just pretended to be a new DE resident and/or a gun newbie. (2) Nope, not selling anything. My only interest is in seeing our entire country turn "blue" (or even better, green!), in the image below. (3) I'll probably be making fewer than a dozen posts total on this forum. I don't have enough time to devote to your fight as well as ours in CA (in addition to my "real" life).

I usually keep busy at CalGuns.Net. You guys may enjoy/benefit from my list of 80+ CCW incidents. (It will be up to ~90 once I find time to add some newer ones.) How do you know that is my workproduct? In post #5, right before the map images, I've posted a shout out to Obleo. (I'll leave that up thru this weekend.)
Link to examples of CCWs Saving Lives: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=858390 (updated link on 2013 Nov 28)

BTW, Obleo, if you've EARNED the PRIVILEGE to display the EGA... Thanks for your service! My Father (RIP), was a Marine mustang in WWII and Korea.

[Paladin4CA]

DE Constitution; Article I, Bill Of Rights; § 20. Right to keep and bear arms.

Section 20. A person has the right to keep and bear arms for the defense of self, family, home and State, and for hunting and recreational use.

Sounds like OC in DE is secure: acc to http://deloc.org/whatis.php it sounds like the DE Con RKBA protects it. So, unless the antis try to amend or revise your state Con (undoubtedly under some other justification), you're solid re. OC.

Not sure how you reconcile:

DE issues CC permits like a Shall Issue state ....

with

According to my CC class, judges in two of the three counties accept "protection of self and property"

esp if the restrictive county is New Castle, which has a majority of DE's population.

CC, requiring a CCW permit, doesn't sound as secure as OC. When did DE get their current May Issue law permitting CCWs?

I read your Superior Courts are state courts, rather than county courts. How do judges get on that bench: elected? appointed? nominated? By who?

Which county does NOT accept self-defense for issuing a CCW? What does it take (typically), to get a CCW there? Did that county issue for self-defense, oh, say 15 years ago?

[poster formerly know as Silverbullet]

I’m not throwing stones at the thread owner here.  However, I am more than just a little suspicious that someone from CA is making efforts to push activism 3000 miles away.  I’ve met and still communicate with several of my State representatives.  There is work to be done but why not through our own community which, by the way, has produced some positive results.

Personally, I think we need all the help we can get.  Special interest groups like the Brady Bunch and MAIG are the ones that write these laws and tailor them to get passed.  We can use our own special interest groups that fight against the tyranny the Antis are trying to shove down our throats.  I also don't have faith in some of our big groups like the NRA.  They will roll over some rights in favor of others and our rights still erode.  No hard line in the sand that they won't stand for IMO.

I agree with you. Sometimes among gun owners though , and I have seen an experience it personally, people fight foes that are not real enemies and there are times people stand up for people who could be enemies to gun owners.

I agree we need all the help we can get. That is one reason I always tell people with permits not to fight battles over if people should be able to oc. Personally I think they should, I do and I would hope their would be a serious challenge if Delaware changes the law  because even with a permit there are times I prefer to open carry, but it the clothes I am wearing, area I am going to or whatever.

Since most lawmakers in Delaware believe choice so much ( couple definitions) I would hope they respect our "choice" on how we carry.

ITS OUR GUNS ITS OUR CHOICE!!!!!!

[Obleo]

Paladin4CA:  I visited the link you provided above.  Please keep up the good work.  Like I said before, no mal intent. Just a healthy skepticism from the university of hard knocks.

And yes.  I earned the privilege in spades to display the EGA.  FYI: I don’t display the EGA for my personal satisfaction. This is a tribute, with it burned into my forearm, to all that fought for my freedoms.  May God bless your father.  He likely helped set the bar for the rest of us.

[ThePixelated]

What was missed was the context of my comment. The lawyer in question (out-of-stater) had no interest in DE concealed carry.  None at all.  He was just trying to sell a book.

I’m not throwing stones at the thread owner here.  However, I am more than just a little suspicious that someone from CA is making efforts to push activism 3000 miles away.  <snip>  There is work to be done but why not through our own community which, by the way, has produced some positive results.

A few thoughts: (1) I could easily have not stated I was out-of-state and just pretended to be a new DE resident and/or a gun newbie. (2) Nope, not selling anything. My only interest is in seeing our entire country turn "blue" (or even better, green!), in the image below. (3) I'll probably be making fewer than a dozen posts total on this forum. I don't have enough time to devote to your fight as well as ours in CA (in addition to my "real" life).

I usually keep busy at CalGuns.Net. You guys may enjoy/benefit from my list of 80+ CCW incidents. (It will be up to ~90 once I find time to add some newer ones.) How do you know that is my workproduct? In post #5, right before the map images, I've posted a shout out to Obleo. (I'll leave that up thru this weekend.)
Link to examples of CCWs Saving Lives: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=598875

BTW, Obleo, if you've EARNED the PRIVILEGE to display the EGA... Thanks for your service! My Father (RIP), was a Marine mustang in WWII and Korea.

BLUE on this map is a pretty color... "Shall issue" in DE would be nice. I just started to work on the paper work for my CCW.

[Cbmarine]

When did DE get their current May Issue law permitting CCWs?

I read your Superior Courts are state courts, rather than county courts. How do judges get on that bench: elected? appointed? nominated? By who?

good questions. If Anthony, the DSSA attorney, or Shannon Alford, our NRA ILA rep, are monitoring this thread, they should be able to answer this.

Which county does NOT accept self-defense for issuing a CCW?

According to my CC class instructor, at least one judge in Sussex County wants a specific reason not the generic quote from the DE Constitution.

What does it take (typically), to get a CCW there?

Not easy. Not cheap. Not quick.  http://courts.delaware.gov/forms/download.aspx?ID=33278

Did that county issue for self-defense, oh, say 15 years ago?

See attorney deflection above.

[Paladin4CA]

Which county does NOT accept self-defense for issuing a CCW?

According to my CC class instructor, at least one judge in Sussex County wants a specific reason not the generic quote from the DE Constitution.

That brings up a new question: how many different judges in each county issue the permits? Who determines which judges serve in that capacity?

Who/What determines which judge gets a particular application?

Do all the judges in that county (or state), have some standards or rules that hedge in their discretion? IOW, I assume they CANNOT "arbitrarily & capriciously" grant one applicant a permit while denying an identical applicant.

What does it take (typically), to get a CCW there?

Not easy. Not cheap. Not quick.  http://courts.delaware.gov/forms/download.aspx?ID=33278

When I asked what it typically takes, I meant what "reason" for a CCW does that county accept if they require more than mere self-defense (or quoting the state Con.). By your answer, it seems like I should rephrase it to "what 'reason' for a CCW does that Sussex judge accept for issuing a permit?"

[seniorgeek]

Guys, I thing you should ask these question at each of the county offices to see what answers you receive.

[MarkB]

Here is what the section of the Delaware On Line Code says:

1441, a, 5

(5) The license issued upon initial application shall be valid for 3 years. On or before the date of expiration of such initial license, the licensee, without further application, may renew the same for the further period of 5 years upon payment to the Prothonotary of a fee of $65, and upon filing with said Prothonotary an affidavit setting forth that the carrying of a concealed deadly weapon by the licensee is necessary for personal protection or protection of the person's property, or both, and that the person possesses all the requirements for the issuance of a license and may make like renewal every 5 years thereafter; provided, however, that the Superior Court, upon good cause presented to it, may inquire into the renewal request and deny the same for good cause shown. No requirements in addition to those specified in this paragraph may be imposed for the renewal of a license.

If you give these reasons, should a judge accept them?  Can a judge require more stringent requirements?