Q from new CA member: Politics in DE & Open Carry

[seniorgeek]

@MarkB, the application as you well know states that you must be specific in your reason. A judge might want a more specific reason.
I put a specific reason on my application besides protect life and person property.
I know what the law states, but it also says " the person possesses all the requirements for the issuance of a license" which the judge has some discretion and may want a more specific reason.

For all who are reading this, put a specific reason besides protect life and property, it may help to move along the process.  

PS I go my permit is 6 weeks, but I submitted it in March.

[poster formerly know as Silverbullet]

@MarkB, the application as you well know states that you must be specific in your reason. A judge might want a more specific reason.
I put a specific reason on my application besides protect life and person property.
I know what the law states, but it also says " the person possesses all the requirements for the issuance of a license" which the judge has some discretion and may want a more specific reason.

For all who are reading this, put a specific reason besides protect life and property, it may help to move along the process.  

PS I go my permit is 6 weeks, but I submitted it in March.

It is possible they changed it, but everyone I know and my instructor ( first state firearms) said "protection of self, family, and property"

I wonder if I am the only one annoyed at how much info they want for a ccdw, but yet other issues important to the anti-side they talk about privacy and choice.

[Cbmarine]

i submit that we are in the weeds here.  I just returned "naked" from our neighboring anti-2A state to the northeast.  Tomorrow, I'll travel inhibited to the neighbor state to the west.  We are CC-functional here in DE. Turning our state blue is a statistics exercise.  I'd rather see much more effort to "Illinois" our neighbors.  For instance, suing NJ for putting in jeopardy my "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" because of their hoplophobia.  Rant over.

[Bmel17]

If something is put in as a specific, the judge may rule that you may only carry during that specific too.  Food for thought

[seniorgeek]

If something is put in as a specific, the judge may rule that you may only carry during that specific too.  Food for thought

Example: A specific could be something like " making multiple trips to a location at various times with valuables" plus the usual statement.
This leaves it very open as to when you need to carry.

[robberbaron]

When I took my course, the instructor shared a story about an applicant that stated the reason to carry was that he needed to make an after hours drop at a night security box at the bank typically on Fridays between 6 and 8 pm. His permit came back with that restriction. He could only legally carry at that time.

[seniorgeek]

Robberbarron, that was entirely to specific. You need to be generally specific as I stated.

[poster formerly know as Silverbullet]

I think

"See second amendment to the Constitution" should suffice, but that would get the app declined for sure.

[Paladin4CA]

Does DE publish (on the web?), the number of current CCW holders?

IIRC, in most Shall Issue states, between 3-5% of the adult population usually gets their CCW. I think getting 5% of DEians (1 out of 20 adults) issued a CCW would be a worthwhile goal.

To that end, you guys should make a list of EVERY gun shop, gun club, and gun range in the state. Organize them acc to location. You'll want each location to have, oh, 3 volunteers from here who will visit it 2x each month to make sure it is supplied w/the business card fliers. Each volunteer may promise to visit, say, two locations near where they live and two near where they work every two weeks (e.g., on their commute, while running errands, etc). This is to make sure they're supplied w/the fliers for the sales people to give w/every sales receipt, or to hand out to members (IPSC, IDPA, PPC), or to leave out for people to take themselves. Of course, # of business card fliers for each location, how often any particular location needs to be resupplied, etc. are all adjusted acc to experience.

I have no idea how many volunteers it will take from this forum to have 3 people cover every shop, club, and range.

Print these "business card fliers" on plain printer paper using MS Word, in 2 column format. You should be able to fit at least 10 on a single sheet of paper. You don't want the "business cards" so small that people will lose them or not notice them (like a fortune cookie's fortune). Standard business card size is best, or just slightly smaller. A title in bold italics like "Handgun Carry Permit Info!" will catch their eye. The fliers will have brief statement in easy to read sans serif front that "If you want to learn about getting a DE concealed handgun carry permit, visit (and then give a URL/web address) for free info." Just enough to grab their attention and make them want to visit the site.

Gun shop/range owners should be for this because the more people who carry, the more guns and ammo sales and the more people who will want to practice.

Carrying a half dozen around in your wallet and a couple of dozen in your car's glove box lets you give them out to those you talk to vs them having to rely upon their memory, and to stick under windshield wiper blades of cars you see w/military, hunting, shooting, NRA, Tea Party, Ron Paul, Gadsden flag, or similar decals.

The website the cards direct people to may be a dedicated webpage here or a separate website that will take them step-by-step thru the process and have links to official state documents/info/applications. Simple and user-friendly are key.

This gives DE 2nd A activists something positive to do while we wait for the fed courts to, hopefully, give us Shall Issue nationwide, either before July 4th 2014 or, at latest, July 4th, 2015. If we don't win that in the fed cts/SCOTUS, that means the only way we'll get it is politically. As you can see from the below animation, not a single state that has gone Shall Issue has EVER gone back! DE CCW has nothing to lose and everything to gain by undertaking something like I've described. It will put you guys in a lot stronger position to fight for Shall Issue politically if we don't win it judicially. The more people who have CCWs, the more people who have "skin in the game," a vested interest in defending your RKBA in DE.

(Of course, I'm not trying to tell you guys what to do in your state. I'm just trying to share some ideas to help you solidify and defend your RKBA in DE. This will put you in a stronger position for a political offensive, if Woollard, Drake and other carry cases don't come thru and you have to fight for Shall Issue legislation, and maybe use OC "events" to persuade the politicos....)

[Paladin4CA]

When did DE get their current May Issue law permitting CCWs?

I read your Superior Courts are state courts, rather than county courts. How do judges get on that bench: elected? appointed? nominated? By who?

good questions. If Anthony, the DSSA attorney, or Shannon Alford, our NRA ILA rep, are monitoring this thread, they should be able to answer this.

Looks like you guys still don't know how the people who decide whether you get a CCW or not, whether you get to renew your CCW or not, get selected and by whom.

Which county does NOT accept self-defense for issuing a CCW?

According to my CC class instructor, at least one judge in Sussex County wants a specific reason not the generic quote from the DE Constitution.

What does it take (typically), to get a CCW there?

Not easy. Not cheap. Not quick.  http://courts.delaware.gov/forms/download.aspx?ID=33278

Did that county issue for self-defense, oh, say 15 years ago?

See attorney deflection above.

You guys may be vulnerable to a "frog in the kettle" approach where slowly, not so fast as to raise a big oppositional response, the judges start making it harder to get or renew a CCW, until there are too few of you w/CCWs who are motivated to mount an effective defense.

A lot of people tend to think, "Aw, judges, they're not political. They just read the law and apply it to the facts of the case." Remember: in Bowers v. Hardwick (1986), SCOTUS said that the constitution allowed homosexual acts to be criminalized. But less than 20 years later, in Lawrence v. Texas (2003), SCOTUS said not only could they not be criminalized, but they were actually a constitutionally protected right! Regardless of your beliefs about homosexuality, the point remains. SCOTUS flipped 180 degrees in less than 20 years.

As long as discretion is allowed, your CCWs are vulnerable.

What are the odds of Shall Issue passing each legislative chamber and getting signed into law?

[Paladin4CA]

Does DE have a state equivalent of the federal "Freedom of Information Act" (FOIA)? In CA we have the "Public Records Act" (PRA).

Why is this important? Because in CA, in the major urban counties where most of the population is and where, naturally, most of the crime is, CCW issuance by the sheriffs is VERY restrictive UNLESS you area politician, a celebrity, or a major donor to the sheriff's campaign. (Those major urban sheriffs are best thought of as "politicians with badges & guns" rather than as chief law enforcement officers.)

One of the activist in CA uses our state's PRA law to compare the "Good Cause" (GC) statements of CCW holders in a particular county (open to public review per a 9th Circuit case, CBS v. Block), to see if there are 14th Amendment (equal protection of the law), violations (e.g., sheriff issues to donor w/same or similar GC to Joe Average whom he denied). If you have a FOIA/PRA-like law and CCW applications are subject to it, if judges start getting restrictive in their issuance, you may have to resort to that legal strategy to get them to issue CCWs to average people.

You can learn more about that method over at: http://californiaconcealedcarry.com/

Here's the sad state of affairs in CA. Most sheriffs (thus most counties), readily issue. But most people don't live in those counties....

[Paladin4CA]

Not sure how you reconcile:

DE issues CC permits like a Shall Issue state ....

with

According to my CC class, judges in two of the three counties accept "protection of self and property"

Question for all: What sort of "Good Cause" (i.e., justification), on an application is sufficient to get a CCW: from weakest (#1), to strongest (#7)?

1) "self-defense" or "to exercise my 2nd Amendment rights"

2) "I'm an avid shooter who regularly goes to the range w/various guns and ammo and thus need a CCW to protect them." Or, "I regularly hike in wilderness areas and need a CCW to protect myself since LE response would take too long."

3) "I'm a competitive 3-gun shooter, here's proof of my club membership, proof of the competitions I've attended around the state, here's my awards. I need a CCW to protect all of these guns (and their back ups/spares), as I travel around the state to competitions open to the public."

4) "I collect rents/business payments, often cash in bad parts of town, I need a CCW for self-defense." Or, "I live in a bad part of town...."

5) Same as #4, but "I've been robbed previously when doing this."

6) "I've had my life threatened by an ex (significant other/employee/etc). See attached police report and restraining order. We believe this perp was the one who broke into our home while we were at work. See this video tape from our outside cameras. We've also seen him drive by our home and/or places of work."

7) "A gang I testified against has a hit out on me. See all the attached and talk w/FBI Agent Smith for more details."

[poster formerly know as Silverbullet]

It seems those areas its really hard to get a permit in CA are places with

lots of illegals
lots of crime
Democrats in power

Go figure.

[Clarence]

The reason needs to be "The Reason".

Some people I know gave great descriptions of
The dangers they face.  Others like myself just said Personal Protection

Don't lie.  Don't make things up. 

I don't know anyone who was turned down for a giving a bad reason as to why they need
a permit. 

[poster formerly know as Silverbullet]

I seem to remember in the 90's it was very discretionary on the prothonatary's part for issuing a Permit here in DE. Then I think the NRA came to town, there was a court case, and now it is must issue if requirements are met.

One thing I do see is much more permit issuance in the past 7 years or so. It is now revenue generation for the state. Just as when they doubled the building permit costs.

That is what I was worried about when I was going for my ccdw. I understand it was while oberly was in office and he was ridiculous about reasons and offering limited permits like only when depositing cash.

Oberly would not even prosecute a cold blooded murderer in Corrina Hawkings. She goes outside her house after a guy was no longer a threat and stabs him.