Author Topic: Delaware Legislative Alert - Sign the Petition  (Read 10201 times)

Cbmarine

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Re: Delaware Legislative Alert - Sign the Petition
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2013, 12:06:29 AM »
Between FSL's Illinois anecdote and their appeal for funds, there appears to be their principal operative argument.
"It is unlawful and unjust to detain someone, invade their property, confiscate their belongings, and force them to undergo treatment based on hearsay."

How does this line up with the proposed HB 88 before we suggest three changes?
Here's the scenario.
A credentialed mental health professional reports a person who is dangerous to others or self to the appropriate law enforcement agency.  
The law enforcement agency investigates and makes a recommendation to Department of Justice.
The DOJ requests that the Superior Court issue an "order order prohibiting the purchase, ownership and possession of a deadly weapon".
At the hearing "The Department shall have the burden of proving by clear and convincing evidence that the respondent is dangerous to others or self as defined in Section 5122 of Title 16."  
"Any proceedings pursuant to this section shall be in a closed and confidential hearing."
"The respondent shall have the right to present evidence and be heard in any such proceedings."
"In the event that the Court makes such a finding, the Court shall issue an order to relinquish respondent’s firearms or ammunition under this section."

And according to the FSL, all this could take place in one night. And the firearms were kept for months.  

Here again is the proposed HB 88
Any person subject to an order of the Court pursuant to this Subchapter may petition the Court for an order to return firearms or ammunition by procedures established by § 1448A of this Title.  
(e) If the basis for relinquishment in 1448B(b) is removed by the Court, any firearms and ammunition taken from the person shall be restored in a timely fashion without the requirement of § 1448A.
(f) Any party in interest aggrieved by a decision of the Courts under this Subchapter may appeal such decision to Supreme Court.

Please make your own decisions.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 05:39:04 AM by Cbmarine »
Just a smelly deplorable dreg of society clinging to God and guns.
New Castle County
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Re: Delaware Legislative Alert - Sign the Petition
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2013, 12:41:23 AM »
Also with HB88

I could see examples like this.

Someone has a spouse or relative die and they end up taking an anti-depressant next thing you know they want to take their guns away. That would be bull.

They really need to clarify dangerous. We are supposed to not be able to punish until an action has occurred. It is a bad thing that a massacre can happen, but fairly as well we are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty.

If guns are taken away because someone "MIGHT" be dangerous is as ridiculous as saying they are going to start sterilizing children based on the likelihood they will become a criminal based on demographic trends of crime. Libs would never go for that, Yet I hate to say it would probably result in less crime than hb88 over a 20 year period.
"We are all entitled to our own opinions, but we are not entitled to our own facts"

Cbmarine

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Re: Delaware Legislative Alert - Sign the Petition
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2013, 12:54:35 AM »
Also with HB88

I could see examples like this.

Someone has a spouse or relative die and they end up taking an anti-depressant next thing you know they want to take their guns away. That would be bull.

They really need to clarify dangerous. We are supposed to not be able to punish until an action has occurred. It is a bad thing that a massacre can happen, but fairly as well we are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty.
...

The Department shall have the burden of proving by clear and convincing evidence that the respondent is dangerous to others or self as defined in Section 5122 of Title 16.

Where 5122 defines:
(2) "Dangerous to others" means that by reason of mental condition there is a substantial likelihood that the person will inflict serious bodily harm upon another person within the immediate future. This determination shall take into account a person's history, recent behavior and any recent act or threat.

(3) "Dangerous to self" means that by reason of mental condition the person is likely to cause injury to oneself and to require immediate care, treatment, or detention.

Since it is very important that these definitions be specific enough so as not to be used against innocent citizens, a colleague has provided the following substitute wording.

Danger to Others (DTO)

The judgment of a person who has a mental disorder is so impaired that he is unable to understand his need for treatment and as a result of his mental disorder his continued behavior can reasonably be expected, on the basis of competent medical opinion, to result in serious physical harm to others.

Danger to Self (DTS)

    Behavior which, as a result of a mental disorder, constitutes a danger of inflicting serious physical harm upon oneself, including attempted suicide or the serious threat thereof, if the threat is such that, when considered in the light of its context and in light of the individual's previous acts, it is substantially supportive of an expectation that the threat will be carried out.
    Behavior which, as a result of a mental disorder, will, without hospitalization, result in serious physical harm or serious illness to the person, except that this definition shall not include behavior which establishes only the condition of gravely disabled.

Just a smelly deplorable dreg of society clinging to God and guns.
New Castle County
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groundgrid

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Re: Delaware Legislative Alert - Sign the Petition
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2013, 04:34:22 AM »
The original version of HB88 was not good. As currently amended, it is much better. Most importantly, with a little more work
HB88 can be turned into a law that actually protects the rights of gun owners.

As it stands now, what happened in Arlington Heights can happen here. If HB88 is further amended & becomes law we would be protected by
law against the arbitrary confiscation of our firearms. HB88 makes due process a requirement. The bill also stipulates that any seized guns be returned
once the subject's condition improves.

I rarely disagree with FSL. However, in this case, I believe that they are grossly misguided.

With the addition of the amendments that I have previously outlined and with better definitions of Danger to Self & Others we become protected against the arbitrary actions of those who do not believe in the fundamental right to self-defense.

For example:
The subject of the Arlington Heights incident was evaluated at a local hospital and, having been deemed to not be in danger released.
As I have proposed, this release by a medical professional would immediately end all actions and require the return of his guns in a timely fashion

To say that FSL is not representing this bill accurately is very generous. I encourage everyone to read the original bill and the already passed amendments very carefully. You will soon realize that it is completely different than how it is being represented by FSL.

A good example is House amendment #1 to HB88 which includes the following:
  The Court may also include in its order a provision that allows such person to relinquish firearms or ammunition owned, possessed or controlled by said person to a designee of said person, provided that the designee does not reside with said person and is not a person prohibited pursuant to Section 1448 of this Title.
This amendment opens the option of an affected individual being able to designate who is to hold on to their guns until the situation is resolved.
The subject of the Arlington Heights incident did not have this option.

House amendment #2 increases the burden of proof:
(b) The Department shall have the burden of proving by clear and convincing evidence
Neither the police nor the so-called therapist in Arlington Heights could have met this burden of proof.
This again shows how HB88 protects us from a similar situation happening here.

I firmly believe that this debate stages the opportunity for us to have a law enacted that will protect our rights.
It has been a very long time since this happened. Let's all take advantage of the situation and encourage our senators to
further amend the bill accordingly.
Here’s the real issue: when your religion is government, and government is god, you cannot tolerate any other God before it
(The reason why Liberal/Progressives have waged a war on Christianity)