Author Topic: 10mm  (Read 10488 times)

gun nut

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10mm
« on: June 19, 2009, 09:15:43 PM »
What do you all think about the 10mm round?
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Sigarms12

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Re: 10mm
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2009, 10:25:08 PM »
I dont like the .40 S&W because of the muzzle flip so Im guessing I wont like the 10mm either. I do know if your looking for a 10mm Glock still makes one.
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gun nut

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Re: 10mm
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2009, 10:36:56 PM »
Do you know who else makes one ? How hard is the ammo to get I wonder.
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Sigarms12

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Re: 10mm
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2009, 11:34:19 PM »
Im not too sure on any other 10mm Gun makers I know Glock is probably the only one that still makes a lot of 10mm guns, as far as ammo any gun store and Im gonna bet that Targetmaster has 10mm ammo.
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GunEnvy

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Re: 10mm
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2009, 02:19:02 AM »
Dont know much about the 10 except for the problems the FBI had with them way back when. As far as Im concerned the combination of the recoil, muzzle blast and risk of over penetration makes it too much gun for CCW and cost of ammo makes it too expensive to target shoot.
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Sigarms12

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Re: 10mm
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2009, 09:47:48 AM »
I have to agree with Gunenvy on that. I think that's why its not really all that popular.
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Sigarms12

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Re: 10mm
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2009, 12:52:58 AM »
Some lite reading on the 10mm

What the 10mm Auto Cartridge Was, Is, and Could Be
Another GREAT article contributed by MakeMineA10mm.

The 10mm was a cartridge that evolved from several wildcats, including the 40 G&A and "The Centimeter". Most of these cartridges were based on safely obtaining major power factor while adding magazine capacity, or attempting to achieve the goals of Skeeter Skelton, Bill Jordan, and Elmer Keith for an "ideal" law-enforcement (and therefore personal defense) cartridge, but in an auto-loading pistol format. There were some limits to these cartridges primarily due to the already-existing pistol-formats that they were designed to fit into.

Along came Dornaus & Dixon and the Bren Ten. They were designing a brand new pistol and a brand new cartridge to go along with it. It seems apparent that they had more than a passing knowledge of the wildcatting going on, and there is no question they knew of the writings of the famous gun-gurus. With Col. Jeff Cooper on board, they worked with Norma, the only ammo producer who would listen to them, and designed the cartridge and gun, basically, simultaneously. What they came up with, was a marvel of it's time, and this one. They invented a 10-shot modified CZ-75 and the 10mm Auto cartridge, shooting a 200gr FMJ-TC at 1200fps or a 170gr JHP-TC (actual weight 165grs) going 1400fps (actual velocity was 1360fps).

What happened to the Bren Ten is equally famous, and it almost took the 10mm cartridge along with it. For a variety of reasons, including defaulting on pre-payments, problems with sub-contractors (especially magazines), and other financial trouble, Dornaus & Dixon and the Bren Ten went under. Luckily, Colt came along and re-chambered and re-engineered their 1911 into the "Delta Elite" and saved the 10mm. The awesome ballistics possible, combined with a proven handgun design made the 10mm an attractive cartridge once again. This had all transpired by the mid-1980s. Then came the infamous "Miami Shoot-Out" in 1986.

In the infamous shoot-out with bank-robbers (armed with long-guns), the FBI had several agents killed and more wounded. They commissioned a study to find out what went wrong. The study determined that their marksmanship had been good, but the terminal ballistics of their rounds had been too slow to incapacitate the bad guys. The Chief of the FBI's Firearms unit, knowing of this new cartridge that was more powerful than anything else in an auto-pistol, suggested the FBI adopt it. The 10mm was now blazing hot, with not only the proven 1911 design and the defunct Bren Ten (which is actually a pretty good design), but also the largest and most impressive Law Enforcement Agency in the US as it's first big user! This also promised the possibility of even more pistol designs, as, in true bureaucratic fashion, there would have to be a competitive design contest to pick which pistol to buy and issue, leading more manufacturers to design 10mm handguns. In addition, more high-performance factory ammo was coming into being, including the Winchester Silvertip (175gr JHP @ 1290fps).

But, then, a funny thing happened. Along came a man named Martin Fackler, who was a doctor for the Army, studying the effects of wounds simultaneously and as an adjunct to the FBI's Wound Ballistics Workshop. To make a long story short, he said that a 180gr 10mm bullet at 950fps was just as effective in 10% gelatin as the Norma 170gr bullet at 1350fps. In addition, many FBI agents (who are primarily accountants, attorneys or computer people by training) were found to be having a very hard time with the recoil of the full-power round. Since the lighter round was just as effective and was easier to handle, the "FBI-Load" became the new standard of 10mm ammunition. Due to the huge market for law enforcement ammunition, most companies switched over production to the "FBI Load".

In the mean time, Smith & Wesson realized there was an opportunity waiting. They realized that they could squeeze the FBI-Load's performance out of a cartridge short enough to fit in a 9mm sized firearm, rather than the 45ACP-sized pistols the 10mm required. They designed the 40 S&W in short order with the help of Winchester Ammunition, and the 10mm began to look very much like an ugly duckling again, as it had after the demise of the Bren Ten and before the Colt Delta Elite came out.

This is where the 10mm was, after the huge wave of 40S&W hit in the mid-90s. The 10mm has had an exciting and tumultuous first 18 years of life. Now, for where the 10mm is today.

Do not be dismayed, 10mm fans! Rather, take heart, because over 21 manufacturers have made more than 37 models of 10mm firearms. (See the 10mm Firearms Page) In addition, there are over 70 jacketed bullets available, and brass is being (or has been) made by at least seven manufacturers. I think it's safe to say the 10mm isn't exactly a dead or dying cartridge, nor is there going to be any shortage of it's ammunition in our lifetimes. (Especially when one considers some of the cartridges that ammo is still available for today, such as the 45 Schofield, 405 Winchester, 7.63 Mauser, etc.)

To my thinking the pinnacle of 10mm design and production came just at the time the FBI loads started predominating the ammo market: the Glock 20. When Gaston Glock directed that Glock make a 10mm, I'm betting he was making a play for the FBI contract. This is supported somewhat by the speed at which he directed a 40 S&W Glock be designed and produced (which happened so fast, Glock actually beat S&W to market with pistols in that caliber!). However, this was a great thing for the 10mm cartridge, because, for the first time, other than the Bren Ten, there was a gun designed specifically for the 10mm, and not a 45ACP gun re-engineered into a 10mm.

This makes the Glock 20 an incredibly strong, safe and well-engineered pistol for the 10mm cartridge, which means there is no reason to unduly restrict ourselves to FBI loads!!!

With no disrespect to Dr. Fackler, I must say I disagree with him on one point. If the 170gr Norma load made the same wound tract as the 180gr "FBI load," I'd call the Norma load the better one, because, clearly (and admitted to by Dr. Fackler), there is more to wound ballistics than we completely understand. If the wound tract (which is one mechanism we do understand) for both loads is in the ideal range, I'll take the load with more energy over the lower-powered one any day! In addition, the Glock 20 solved a great deal of the recoil problem, through it's wide and flexible polymer frame. I say, ditch the FBI load, and go for the full-power stuff!!!
" An armed society is a polite society"
I not sick, I'm twisted. Sick makes it sound like there's a cure.

gun nut

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Re: 10mm
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2009, 08:56:05 AM »
Thank you Sig. That article was very informative.
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turfmn

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Re: 10mm
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2009, 12:25:43 PM »
One of my favorite pistols is a 1911. I Have 1911's that are chambered in .38 super, 10mm, and of course .45acp. The 10mm imho is a very fast, flat shooting round. The recoil isn't as bad as most think. It's more "snappy" than a .45, but the .45 feels like it has more "torque". I don't know if that makes sense to ya. When I shoot the 10mm it feels like the slide cycles faster, but there's not as much force working against your hand when compared to the .45. I don't know what type of pistol your looking for, but there are a lot of 1911 manufacturer's that chamber 1911's in 10mm. The ammo is a little hard to find. You can't go to Walmart and buy a box or two the night before your going to  the range. As far as price, it seems to be running about $18 to $25 for a box of 50rds. I usually pick it up online. I will pick up a box here and there at gunshows or local shops if they have it. 

oldgraygeek

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Re: 10mm
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2010, 11:26:23 AM »
I have both of the 10mm Glocks: a G20 and a G29. Both of them shoot fine. The recoil isn't excessive -- even with full-power ammo -- and they are very accurate.

I order carry ammo from DoubleTap, and I get practice ammo in bulk from Georgia Arms.
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gun nut

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Re: 10mm
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2010, 01:51:03 PM »
Thank you for the info oldgraygeek gives me more to look over.
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