Author Topic: C&R License in Delaware  (Read 8594 times)

NormH3

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C&R License in Delaware
« on: April 26, 2016, 07:03:58 PM »
I've had my C&R for about a year, but have yet to use it. I was on Gunbroker recently looking at some .32acp handguns and came across one that I may be interested in. It was manufactured in 1959 so it passes the age test and the description verifies it is C&R eligible. Now comes the fun part. In the wordage the seller has added this comment....

"Please Note that C&R Handguns, as concealable weapons, must transfer through an 01 or 02 FFL in the States of California, Delaware, Hawaii, New Jersey, and New York; in the District of Colombia; and in the cities of Boston MA, and Chicago IL. Illinois C&Rs please include a copy of your ISP FOID Card."

Are they correct? I've done research but haven't found anything. Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 07:12:20 PM by NormH3 »

Lumspond

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Re: C&R License in Delaware
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2016, 09:28:29 PM »
Short answer, I don't the answer to your question. You should have received a book of regs with your license. I held a C&R for years, but let it expire. I found a lot of folks on Gunbroker didn't want to sell to a FFL03. You could also look in the C&R forum: http://curioandrelicfirearmsforum.yuku.com
New Castle County

NormH3

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Re: C&R License in Delaware
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2016, 10:09:59 PM »
Short answer, I don't the answer to your question. You should have received a book of regs with your license. I held a C&R for years, but let it expire. I found a lot of folks on Gunbroker didn't want to sell to a FFL03. You could also look in the C&R forum: http://curioandrelicfirearmsforum.yuku.com

Thank you. I looked through the ATF packet and have found nothing state specific. I found the C&R forum just after I posted here. Will ask over there if I can't find anything.

NormH3

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Re: C&R License in Delaware
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2016, 11:19:50 PM »
Just an update. PM'd the seller on GB and asked where he got his information and the reply was "direct from the ATF". He did say if I could prove otherwise, he'd be glad to remove Delaware from his exception list. Looks like I have some digging to do.

Lumspond

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Re: C&R License in Delaware
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2016, 12:18:35 AM »
Is the pistol you're interested in listed in the C&R list? Although it doesn't have to be to be eligible. List is here, although I know you have it: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios-relics
New Castle County

NormH3

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Re: C&R License in Delaware
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2016, 12:57:50 AM »
Is the pistol you're interested in listed in the C&R list? Although it doesn't have to be to be eligible. List is here, although I know you have it: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios-relics

Yes it is. It's even advertised as such.

Clarence

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Re: C&R License in Delaware
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2016, 10:21:57 AM »
Just an update. PM'd the seller on GB and asked where he got his information and the reply was "direct from the ATF". He did say if I could prove otherwise, he'd be glad to remove Delaware from his exception list. Looks like I have some digging to do.
Here is the proof. See exemption number 8 in 1448b:
 1448B Criminal history record checks for sales of firearms — Unlicensed persons.

(a) No unlicensed person shall sell or transfer any firearm, as defined in § 222 of this title, to any other unlicensed person without having conducted a criminal history background check through a licensed firearms dealer in accordance with § 1448A of this title and § 904A of Title 24, as the same may be amended from time to time, to determine whether the sale or transfer would be in violation of federal or state law.

(b) For purposes of this section:

(1) "Licensed dealer" means any person licensed as a deadly weapons dealer pursuant to Chapter 9 of Title 24 and 18 U.S.C. § 921 et seq.

(2) "Transfer" means assigning, pledging, leasing, loaning, giving away, or otherwise disposing of, but does not include:

a. The loan of a firearm for any lawful purpose, for a period of 14 days or less, by the owner of said firearm to a person known personally to him or her;

b. A temporary transfer for any lawful purpose that occurs while in the continuous presence of the owner of the firearm, provided that such temporary transfer shall not exceed 24 hours in duration;

c. The transfer of a firearm for repair, service or modification to a licensed gunsmith or other person lawfully engaged in such activities as a regular course of trade or business; or

d. A transfer that occurs by operation of law or because of the death of a person for whom the prospective transferor is an executor or administrator of an estate or a trustee of a trust created in a will.

(3) "Unlicensed person" means any person who is not a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer.

(c) The provisions of this section shall not apply to:

(1) Transactions in which the potential purchaser or transferee is a parent, mother-in-law, father-in-law, stepparent, legal guardian, grandparent, child, daughter-in-law, son-in-law, stepchild, grandchild, sibling, sister-in-law, brother-in-law, spouse, or civil union partner of the seller or transferor;

(2) Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898;

(3) Any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (c)(2) of this section if such replica:

a. Is not designed or redesigned to use rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or

b. Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade;

(4) Any muzzle-loading firearm designed for hunting or competitive shooting not requiring a criminal background check pursuant to federal law;

(5) Transactions in which the potential purchaser or transferee is a qualified active duty law-enforcement officer or a qualified retired law-enforcement officer, as such terms are defined in § 1441A of this title;

(6) Transactions in which the potential purchaser or transferee holds a current and valid concealed carry permit issued by the Superior Court of the State of Delaware pursuant to § 1441 of this title.

(7) Transactions in which the prospective buyer or transferee is a bona fide member or adherent of an organized church or religious group, the tenets of which prohibit photographic identification; provided, however, that no unlicensed person shall sell or transfer any firearm to any such person without having conducted a criminal history background check in accordance with subsection (f) of this section hereunder to determine whether the sale or transfer would be in violation of federal or state law;

(8) Transactions involving the sale or transfer of a curio or relic to a licensed collector, as such terms are defined in 27 C.F.R. 478.11, as the same may be amended from time to time;

(9) Transactions involving the sale or transfer of a firearm to an authorized representative of the State or any subdivision thereof as part of an authorized voluntary gun buyback program.

(d) Notwithstanding anything to the contrary herein, no fee for a criminal history background check may be charged for the return of a firearm to its owner that has been repaired, serviced or modified by a licensed gunsmith or other person lawfully engaged in such activities as a regular course of trade or business.

(e) Any person who knowingly sells or transfers a firearm in violation of this section shall be guilty of a class A misdemeanor. Any subsequent offense shall be a class G felony. The Superior Court shall have exclusive jurisdiction for all offenses under this section.

(f) The State Bureau of Investigation (the "Bureau") shall facilitate the sale or transfer of any firearm in which the prospective buyer is a bona fide member or adherent of an organized church or religious group, the tenets of which prohibit photographic identification, pursuant to the following procedure. For purposes of this subsection, the terms "prospective buyer" and "prospective seller" shall include prospective transferors and prospective transferees, respectively.

(1) The prospective buyer and seller shall jointly appear at the State Bureau of Investigation during regular hours of business, and shall inform the Bureau of their desire to avail themselves of the procedure set forth herein. The actual cost of the criminal history background check shall be paid by either the prospective buyer or prospective seller.

(2) The prospective buyer shall be required to submit fingerprints and other necessary information in order to obtain a report of the individual's entire criminal history record pursuant to the Federal Bureau of Investigation appropriation of Title II of Public Law 92-544 (28 U.S.C. § 534). In addition, the prospective buyer shall submit to the Bureau a signed affidavit stating that photographic identification conflicts with the tenets of an organized church or religious group of which the prospective buyer is a bona fide member.

(3) In the event that said background check reveals that the prospective buyer is prohibited from possessing, purchasing or owning a firearm, the Bureau shall so inform both parties of that fact and the transfer shall not take place.
DE MD PA VA FL ccw. NRA Life Member. DSSA member. Sussex County

Quod non me necat me fortiorem facit.

Lumspond

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Re: C&R License in Delaware
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2016, 12:59:22 PM »
Thanks Clarence. You're the best!
My guess is the Gunbroker won't sell to a C&R licensee even when presented with evidence that he's wrong. I'd encountered that before.
If all else fails and you really want the pistol, you could use Federal Firearms (FFL01) from this board. Chris is just below Middletown and very reasonable. Defeats the purpose of a C&R, I know....
Good luck.
New Castle County

NormH3

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Re: C&R License in Delaware
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2016, 01:33:14 PM »
At this point, I'm not going to worry about it. I found a few other sellers that use the same wording in their disclaimer. Appreciate the help.

Lumspond

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Re: C&R License in Delaware
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2016, 01:40:56 PM »
On my last post, I meant to say "specific sellers on Gunbroker won't sell", not "Gunbroker won't sell".
Cheers!
New Castle County

Kilroy08

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Re: C&R License in Delaware
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2016, 05:03:05 PM »
I've bought pistols online with my C&R. There's nothing prohibiting purchases of C&R pistols on your FFL in Delaware.

I've run in to knuckleheads who equate my C&R with toilet paper though. Not a problem, I'll take my business elsewhere.

NormH3

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Re: C&R License in Delaware
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2016, 05:49:12 PM »
I've bought pistols online with my C&R. There's nothing prohibiting purchases of C&R pistols on your FFL in Delaware.

I've run in to knuckleheads who equate my C&R with toilet paper though. Not a problem, I'll take my business elsewhere.

Thanks for responding. This a 1959 Walther PP Manurhin .32 ACP. I may be giving the local ATF office a call later on just to clarify the law or lack there of.

Kilroy08

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Re: C&R License in Delaware
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2016, 12:32:44 AM »
Glad I could help.

Most of the problems with trying to receive something on a C&R revolve around state laws pertaining to purchase permits and prohibited firearms.
Maryland and New Jersey laws are two prime examples.

Clarence

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Re: C&R License in Delaware
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2016, 01:09:29 AM »
I've bought pistols online with my C&R. There's nothing prohibiting purchases of C&R pistols on your FFL in Delaware.

I've run in to knuckleheads who equate my C&R with toilet paper though. Not a problem, I'll take my business elsewhere.

Thanks for responding. This a 1959 Walther PP Manurhin .32 ACP. I may be giving the local ATF office a call later on just to clarify the law or lack there of.
You may or may not get good information by a phone call, but whatever you get from a call will be of no use. Better to write a formal letter asking for clarification as to if a sale to an 03 in Delaware is permissible.   Mention 1448b.  They will respond and letter will give you a clearance to avoid future problems.  If the ATF says that a sale to an 03 must go through a dealer, they will have to cite the legal reason in writing.

My guess is that someone (the dealer?) has become aware of the restrictions on private sales that were instituted in 2013 but is unaware of 1448b exemption 8. 
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 02:14:54 PM by Clarence »
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