Author Topic: lethal violence protection order poss in De?  (Read 5375 times)

muleman88

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lethal violence protection order poss in De?
« on: March 05, 2017, 01:08:07 PM »
Article today in the News journal of a lethal violence protection order poss in De. Now that the 10th district went to a democrat and they kept their majority I guess this is what to expect. For law abiding citizens this is no more than another step to infringe on your rights ! By nothing more than a phone call your firearms can be taken from you to keep you "safe"! Please go read the article .
 If someone has a mental issue I believe they should be checked and treated . I do not believe my rights to be infringed by a phone call from someone that don't like me or has an agenda .
  Here's an ideal , since cars kill way more than guns can I call 911 when someone is driving bad ? Maybe give the tag # and police can go take their lic and all vehicles since we don't want anyone hurt? And all the statistics show cars cause more deaths than guns... I'm not sure about you folks but I'm tired giving up my freedoms one little piece at a time.
   

SturmRugerSR9

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Re: lethal violence protection order poss in De?
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2017, 01:47:23 PM »
Agree! Nothing good will come to Delaware citizens from Electing more Democrats. Expect to lose more rights, increased taxes and spending on Left-Winged Social give-aways to those who don't deserve it.
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Just Bill

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Re: lethal violence protection order poss in De?
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2017, 02:01:01 PM »
When I saw they want to model it after Peoples Republic of Cal. law, I knew we were in trouble.

Just curious, where did the dems get all those voters, bus them in, along with the money they used.
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airman1968

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Re: lethal violence protection order poss in De?
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2017, 02:30:46 PM »
The Democrats have to be stopped in this state!!!!! Problem is the heavily populated areas with many residents who receive "free stuff" that vote Democratic.
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MarkB

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Re: lethal violence protection order poss in De?
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2017, 03:58:41 PM »
They do not believe in "Due Process".  This may be in violation of sections 6 and 7 of the Delaware Constitution; not that that ever bothered them.

§ 6. Searches and seizures.

Section 6. The people shall be secure in their persons, houses, papers and possessions, from unreasonable searches and seizures; and no warrant to search any place, or to seize any person or thing, shall issue without describing them as particularly as may be; nor then, unless there be probable cause supported by oath or affirmation.

§ 7. Procedural rights in criminal prosecutions; jury trial; self-incrimination; deprivation of life, liberty or property.

Section 7. In all criminal prosecutions, the accused hath a right to be heard by himself or herself and his or her counsel, to be plainly and fully informed of the nature and cause of the accusation against him or her, to meet the witnesses in their examination face to face, to have compulsory process in due time, on application by himself or herself, his or her friends or counsel, for obtaining witnesses in his or her favor, and a speedy and public trial by an impartial jury; he or she shall not be compelled to give evidence against himself or herself, nor shall he or she be deprived of life, liberty or property, unless by the judgment of his or her peers or by the law of the land.
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MarcWinkman

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Re: lethal violence protection order poss in De?
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2017, 09:55:53 PM »
My understanding of the proposed legislation is that it falls outside the purview of Article I, Section 6 and Section 7 as it is not a criminal seizure. It seems to be an outgrowth of what Delaware and other states have adopted as the so called "community caretaker" role of law enforcement. Not good if passed, and unfortunately something that's not likely to be judicially invalidated for some time after passage.

MarkB

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Re: lethal violence protection order poss in De?
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2017, 04:15:26 PM »
So the Constitution doesn't matter?  They can just do what they want.
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MarcWinkman

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Re: lethal violence protection order poss in De?
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2017, 05:48:58 PM »
It's like with any other provision of the constitution, there are exceptions, the "community caretaker" standard is one such instance where the usual rules of constitutional law do not apply in the normal sense.  It's a relatively new concept in Delaware first formally recognized by the Delaware Supreme Court in 2008 in the case of Williams v. State, 926 A.2d 210 (Del. 2008).  Basically it says (1) where there is/are objective, specific and articulable facts from which an officer would suspect that a citizen is in apparent peril, distress, or need of assistance, the officer may intervene for the purpose of mitigating the peril; (2) if the citizen is in fact in need of aid, the officer may take appropriate action to render assistance or mitigate the peril; and (3) once, however, the officer is assured that the citizen is not in peril or is no longer in need of assistance or that the peril has been mitigated, the caretaking function has ended. 

Basically, you get a bunch of anti lawyers and legislators who have a little knowledge of this standard and you can side step the constitution to temporarily confiscate an individual's guns.  For me personally, I'm trying to sort out how they plan to reconcile prong two with prong three.  In their mind, and I agree, they can use this standard to sidestep some due process considerations, however, the harm sought to be mitigated is necessarily the individual's use of his/her gun(s) to harm him/herself and/or others.  So you get a nice neat check in box one which relies on objective evidence.  In box two, however, it starts getting fuzzy since under the community caretaker and parens patriae doctrines, and after having the knowledge ascertained in step one, you can seize the gun(s).  The gigantic problem comes in with step three, however.  Yes, after you've taken the gun(s), the harm is mitigated, however, it's also at that point where intervention must stop, that intervention being the seizure of guns.  Returning them, however, resparks the harm sought to be mitigated.  So as you see, step two and three create a self perpetuating cycle. 

Bottom line, the legislature SHOULD NOT vote this into law, but given what they've done over the past few years including the June tweak that extends the 4473 hold to 25 days, this will probably breeze through to and have to be litigated all the way up through the State Supreme Court to have a chance to go away. 

Cbmarine

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Re: lethal violence protection order poss in De?
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2017, 06:26:31 PM »
I'm having a feeling of deja vu. This sounds like a section of the 2013 HB88 mental health bill or a later similar bill. @groundgrid would remember.
Has this been introduced as a bill into the DE Legislature?
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muleman88

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Re: lethal violence protection order poss in De?
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2017, 11:54:13 PM »
I don't thinks it's introduced yet. The article was stating now is the time basically. I'm guessing their will be a push for this type of legislation soon.