Author Topic: Bible Inscriptions on Rifle Sights...  (Read 13405 times)

Moosie

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Bible Inscriptions on Rifle Sights...
« on: January 20, 2010, 02:36:33 PM »
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_military_weapons_bible_passages

Amazing how things get blown out of proportion.  Personally, I dont care if this is on the sight I buy or not.  I guess folks will start crap over just about anything!


Secret Jesus Bible Codes on U.S. Military Weapons

WASHINGTON – Army officials said Tuesday they will investigate whether a Michigan defense contractor violated federal procurement rules by stamping references to Bible verses on combat rifle sights used by American forces to kill enemy fighters in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Marine Corps, another major customer of the telescoping sights that allow troops to pinpoint targets day or night, says service acquisition officials plan to meet with the contractor, Trijicon of Wixom, Mich., to discuss future purchases of the company's gear.

The references have stoked concerns by a watch dog group about whether the inscriptions break a government rule that bars proselytizing by American troops. But military officials said the citations don't violate the ban and they won't stop using the tens of thousands of telescoping sights that have already been bought.

Trijicon said it has been longstanding company practice to put the Scripture citations on the equipment. Tom Munson, Trijicon's director of sales and marketing, said the company has never received any complaints until now.

"We don't publicize this," Munson said in a recent interview. "It's not something we make a big deal out of. But when asked, we say, 'Yes, it's there.'"

The inscriptions are subtle and appear in raised lettering at the end of the stock number. Trijicon's rifle sights use tritium, a radioactive form of hydrogen, to create light and help shooters hit what they're aiming for.

Markings on the Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight, which is standard issue to U.S. special operations forces, include "JN8:12," a reference to John 8:12: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, 'I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life,'" according to the King James version of the Bible.

The Trijicon Reflex sight is stamped with 2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ," the King James version reads.

Photos posted on a Defense Department Web site show Iraqi forces training with rifles equipped with the inscribed sights.

The Defense Department is a major customer of Trijicon's. In 2009 alone, the Marine Corps signed deals worth $66 million for the company's products. Trijicon's scopes and optical devices for guns range in cost from a few hundred dollars to $13,000, according to the company's Web site.

Mikey Weinstein, president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, says the Trijicon sights could give the Taliban and other enemy forces a propaganda tool: that American troops are Christian crusaders invading Muslim countries.

"I don't have to wonder for a nanosecond how the American public would react if citations from the Quran were being inscribed onto these U.S. armed forces gun sights instead of New Testament citations," Weinstein said. The foundation is a nonprofit organization opposed to religious favoritism within the military.

Weinstein said he has received complaints about the Scripture citations from active-duty and retired members of the military. He said he couldn't identify them because they fear retaliation.

A spokesman for U.S. Central Command, which manages military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, said the sights don't violate the ban on proselytizing because there's no effort to distribute the equipment beyond the U.S. troops who use them.

"This situation is not unlike the situation with U.S. currency," said the spokesman, Air Force Maj. John Redfield. "Are we going to stop using money because the bills have 'In God We Trust' on them? As long as the sights meet the combat needs of troops, they'll continue to be used."

Capt. Geraldine Carey, a Marine Corps spokeswoman, said Tuesday in an e-mailed statement that "we are aware of the issue and are concerned with how this may be perceived." Carey said Marine Corps acquisition officials plan to meet with Trijicon to discuss future buys of the company's sights. The statement did not say what the nature of those discussions would be.

Gary Tallman, an Army spokesman, said the service was not aware of the markings. But Army acquisition experts will determine if Trijicon violated any procurement regulations, he said.

Munson, Trijicon's sales director, said the practice of putting Bible references on the sites began nearly 30 years ago by Trijicon's founder, Glyn Bindon, who was killed in a plane crash in 2003. His son Stephen, Trijicon's president, has continued the practice.

___

On the Net:

Trijicon: http://www.trijicon.com/Trijicon.cfm


"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James Madison, The Federalist Papers)

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Hawkeye

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Re: Bible Inscriptions on Rifle Sights...
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2010, 02:03:32 AM »
I think it is great that a company show its Christian roots in their product but then again I think any of our ammo going over to the middle east should be soaked in bacon grease first.

The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they suppress.
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Moosie

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Re: Bible Inscriptions on Rifle Sights...
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2010, 01:53:48 PM »
ROFL!  Yes, that would be terrific! 

Moosie
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GunEnvy

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Re: Bible Inscriptions on Rifle Sights...
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2010, 03:51:32 PM »
LMAO
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Sigarms12

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Re: Bible Inscriptions on Rifle Sights...
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2010, 07:10:41 PM »
My feeling is if they have an issue with it find a different vendor, its not like their putting on them just because they are going to the Military. Its something they've done for 30 years.
" An armed society is a polite society"
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Aries

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Re: Bible Inscriptions on Rifle Sights...
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2010, 10:37:26 PM »
I think any of our ammo going over to the middle east should be soaked in bacon grease first.
Or hand-out Pork MREs..... ;D
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 10:50:08 PM by Aries »

deviant.ollam

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Re: Bible Inscriptions on Rifle Sights...
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2010, 06:09:36 PM »
I think any of our ammo going over to the middle east should be soaked in bacon grease first.
funny as your joke is, i'm of the opinion that intentionally attempting to insult or offend the local populace of a country where our men and women are serving in a theater or war is rarely a smart policy.

Or hand-out Pork MREs
this would make things logistically difficult during chow time, given the number of jewish and muslim citizens who are currently serving in the armed forces.  or, are you indicating that these people should not be in uniform?  sorry... just lots of folk going for the easy punchline humor in this thread and that sometimes makes it hard to determine someone's true opinion on an issue.

Hawkeye

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Re: Bible Inscriptions on Rifle Sights...
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2010, 07:04:00 PM »
I think any of our ammo going over to the middle east should be soaked in bacon grease first.
funny as your joke is, i'm of the opinion that intentionally attempting to insult or offend the local populace of a country where our men and women are serving in a theater or war is rarely a smart policy..

Who said it was a joke?

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Hawkeye

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Re: Bible Inscriptions on Rifle Sights...
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2010, 07:20:14 PM »
just lots of folk going for the easy punchline humor in this thread and that sometimes makes it hard to determine someone's true opinion on an issue.

Fair enough, I will give you my true opinion. First, I respect your right to take a differing view than mine.  I do not know how to fight a politically correct war. We are a country that will use napalm but not hollow point ammo because hollow points are inhumane. I am sorry, how do you humanely kill someone in a war? You are taking everything that they have and everything that they ever will have when you take their life. How can you do that and not insult them.  So what if they are insulted what are they going to do?  Torture us, hang us upside down from a bridge, cut our heads off on camera to show the world, hide behind innocent women and children as they shoot at us, use suicide bombers to blow up their own citizens? Wait, they already do that. It may sound crude but the one thing they understand is terror.  If it will strike emotional terror in there creepy little barbaric souls to think that the bullet that is about to go through their brain has been in bacon then so be it.  If they believe that they will be buried with a pig carcass and that belief will stop them from fighting then I am all for it.  What do we get for fighting a politically correct war? We get Navy Seals waiting for a court-martial because a terrorist got punched.  Boo frickin hoo.  We get soldiers killed because the rules of engagement are s screwed up that Commanders in the field have to call a military lawyer before calling in for air support.  I say if we are going to fight this war than untie our hands and let us get the job done. 

The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they suppress.
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GunEnvy

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Re: Bible Inscriptions on Rifle Sights...
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2010, 09:45:09 PM »
A fricken men!!!!
Very well said Hawk
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deviant.ollam

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Re: Bible Inscriptions on Rifle Sights...
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2010, 11:42:03 PM »
I respect your right to take a differing view than mine.
as do i, man.  and i really do value discussions like this.  i worry that we're treading well into the "politics" territory outside of that particular forum on these boards, but as long as the discussion remains polite and the mods don't step in to discourage things, i'll keep entertaining the topic as much as you care to.


I do not know how to fight a politically correct war.
indeed, such an endeavor remains the fallacy of any number of politicians and military brass alike who seek to dress up such conflict in desensitizing words and press spin.  there is no politically correct war and attempting to fight one nowadays is total folly.  (of course, one can try to make the argument that there is no longer any such thing as a "winnable" war, and that trying to wage one of those in this modern world is similarly likely to meet with unexpected consequences and disappointment.)


when you take their life. How can you do that and not insult them.  So what if they are insulted
you seem to be restricting your statements exclusively to the legitimate targets that are prosecuted with direct fire on a simple, open battlefield.  as we both know, they are not the only ones to ever be harmed by small arms fire during a conflict.  accidental and unintentional casualties among the local populace would also be potentially thought of as sinful or otherwise insulting to those who still cling to arcane religious devotion.  there's even the potential that stray ordinance that is simply laying around on the ground (or, by extension, contaminating water supplies, etc) could be seen by citizens over there as "dirtying" them.

remember, it's not just about winning battles, it's about establishing a workable society over there where people aren't actively being recruited to become the next generation of terrorists, etc.  the more we can do to lessen our visage as "evil" or "dirty" or otherwise insensitive to the locals, the more likely they are to not participate in supporting our enemies on the battlefield.  it's much easier to convince a small village to actually show our troops where a cache of mortars or RPGs are being hidden if the local clerics aren't giving sermons about how we're infecting their sons and daughters with pork residue all across the countryside.

we are also attempting to cultivate, train, and one day turn things over to (gah, we can only hope) a security force comprised of local police, militia, and eventually government security agents.  these are people that we are currently arming now.  how well do you think the training will go over if they all start wondering whether there is pork product on the rounds they're being issued in classrooms, at firing ranges, and for personal ammo stores?

remember, one of the key reasons the Brits lost the ability to control the entire Indian sub-continent was the rebellion among their Sepoy troops (locals whom they trained and equipped, much like we are trying to do now in Iraq and elsewhere).  the 1853 Enfield rifles that were issued to everyone used paper cartridge rounds that had to be greased to keep out the elements and protect the propellant. 

pork fat or beef tallow was commonly used for this task.  the Sepoy army was composed of a mix of local Muslims and Hindus (among others) and these rounds were therefore considered foul and demeaning to both parties.  (interestingly, failures in the massive logistical effort to track shipments of which rounds had which grease led to the total inability of the Brits to assure any of their Sepoy troops of what coating was on anything they were issued.)

it's the little things that can turn a local population against us, or curry their favor.  this is one very little thing that could have huge ramifications... hence my assertion that your notion, while unique, would do far more harm than good.


the one thing they understand is terror.
i would submit that if they understood terror, they wouldn't use the tactic so poorly.


emotional terror in there creepy little barbaric souls
i would also take issue with the assertion that anyone's soul (if one believes in such a thing) is any greater or lesser than anyone else's soul.


that belief will stop them from fighting
and here we come to the real crux of the debate.  i would think that any chance such a tactic (the greased ammo or the "bury with pork" etc etc) would have of discouraging any fighters over there to lay down arms would be far outweighed by the undermining of our reputation as i outlined above.

while there is a lot of religious rhetoric thrown about among the other side forces whom we face on battlefields nowadays (and indeed it plays a large part in their recruiting tactics) most of the people we actually encounter at the business end of our ARs are not "fanatics" and zealots of that high a degree.  they are motivated by nationalism as much as religion in some cases.  all in all, when you have people like that who are twisting the very tenants of their faith in order to justify bloodshed, it's not too much to imagine that some cleric, somewhere, will just twist their liturgy a little further... saying how "if it's an infidel who is applying pork to your corpse then Allah forgives you and you're actually still halal and blah blah blah."


I say if we are going to fight this war than untie our hands and let us get the job done.
indeed.  of course, the alternative is to stop fighting the war and leave, thus forcing the locals to finally stand up and take responsibility for the mess that they've done little to clean in the better part of a decade now.

just my half-formed thoughts, aided by a glass of scotch.  i'm happy to banter about this all some more, here or in a bar.  first drink's on me.

deviant.ollam

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Re: Bible Inscriptions on Rifle Sights...
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2010, 12:12:03 AM »
while i'm happy to continue the above debate, i'll also try to steer back on topic...

i'm not remotely religious and i'm a fan of people keeping a "don't ask, don't tell" policy when it comes to matters of faith... but that said, i still am pleased with Trijicon's products and have them on two of my firearms.

heck, In-N-Out burger does this same sort of stuff on their fast food packaging, yet i'll still stop by for a bite in their establishments when i'm out west.  ;D

as long as a company isn't actively cramming their views down others' throats (and as long as their goods can stand up to competition in the marketplace) i wish them good business and leave the politics out of it.

Hawkeye

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Re: Bible Inscriptions on Rifle Sights...
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2010, 01:27:25 AM »
Deviant, I am always up for a spirited debate but as you stated, we ended up a little off topic. As for companies proclaiming their religious leanings CrossBreed holsters is very open about their Christianity and this is a product I use for EDC.  I do not own Trijicon sights....yet.

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Moosie

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Re: Bible Inscriptions on Rifle Sights...
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2010, 01:00:36 PM »
Sorry, I'm not as politically correct as some.  Gloves off if you're fighting against the US military.  I dont care what offends you or insults you. 

As for the scripture references on their products, I'm with Hawkeye.  Dont shove it down my throat and I'll buy your gear if it's quality. 

 >:( Moosie. 
"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James Madison, The Federalist Papers)

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