Author Topic: Making good use of our reciprocity  (Read 12219 times)

oldgraygeek

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Making good use of our reciprocity
« on: October 09, 2010, 12:20:18 AM »
I'm driving to visit my dad in Oklahoma tomorrow. Thanks to the new reciprocity agreement with West Virginia, I will only need to disarm once for Illinois.

I have a binder with printed summaries of the state gunlaws from handgunlaw.us. I've read them, and I'm planning to obey all of them.

The only law I intend to break is the speed limit, but I usually get away with it.
Maybe my car helps...
"She's petite, extremely beautiful, and heavily armed."
--Sheriff Bud Boomer, Canadian Bacon

muleman88

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Re: Making good use of our reciprocity
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2010, 12:24:46 AM »
Have a safe trip! Better watch the speed I think their trying to make up for lost revenue with tickets.

oldgraygeek

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Re: Making good use of our reciprocity
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2010, 02:34:00 AM »
Thanks.
I tend to keep my speed less than 20 mph over the limit, and I aviod being the "lead dog" whenever possible.
I also follow all the rules for police encounters as though I am always in Ohio.
From handgunlaw.us (emphasis mine):
Quote
Traffic Stops and Other Law Enforcement Encounters
2923.12
(B) No person who has been issued a license or temporary emergency license to carry a concealed handgun
under section 2923.125 or 2923.1213 of the Revised Code or a license to carry a concealed handgun that was
issued by another state with which the attorney general has entered into a reciprocity agreement under
section 109.69 of the Revised Code shall do any of the following:
(1) If the person is stopped for a law enforcement purpose and is carrying a concealed handgun, fail to
promptly inform any law enforcement officer who approaches the person after the person has been stopped
that the person has been issued a license or temporary emergency license to carry a concealed handgun and
that the person then is carrying a concealed handgun;

(2) If the person is stopped for a law enforcement purpose and if the person is carrying a concealed handgun,
knowingly fail to keep the person’s hands in plain sight at any time after any law enforcement officer begins
approaching the person while stopped and before the law enforcement officer leaves, unless the failure is
pursuant to and in accordance with directions given by a law enforcement officer;

(3) If the person is stopped for a law enforcement purpose, if the person is carrying a concealed handgun, and
if the person is approached by any law enforcement officer while stopped, knowingly remove or attempt to
remove the loaded handgun from the holster, pocket, or other place in which the person is carrying it,
knowingly grasp or hold the loaded handgun, or knowingly have contact with the loaded handgun by
touching it with the person’s hands or fingers at any time after the law enforcement officer begins
approaching and before the law enforcement officer leaves, unless the person removes, attempts to remove,
grasps, holds, or has contact with the loaded handgun pursuant to and in accordance with directions given by
the law enforcement officer;

(4) If the person is stopped for a law enforcement purpose and if the person is carrying a concealed handgun,
knowingly disregard or fail to comply with any lawful order of any law enforcement officer given while the
person is stopped, including, but not limited to, a specific order to the person to keep the person’s hands in
plain sight.
Note: So far, the Ohio Supreme Court has not defined the term “plain sight” precisely in the context of
carrying a concealed handgun. However, in other contexts, courts have generally held that the term “plain
sight” is a common sense term that means clearly visible or unobstructed. Plain sight applies to
your hands and other objects.

I'm going to obey every officer; I shall inform any officer who stops me that I am armed even in states where that is not required; I'm going to avoid touching my gun; and I'm going to obey every lawful order given by the officer(s).
Not because I'm polite. (I am polite).
Not because I'm afraid of being arrested or shot. (I am afraid).

Because it makes the policeman's job easier to behave as described in the Ohio law. Specifically, it makes it easier to decide that I am not a threat to his safety, which reduces the threat of my own death or detainment.

This, in turn, makes it easier for the officer(s) to let me keep driving along their highways, knowing I pose no threat to them or their brethren in uniform.
"She's petite, extremely beautiful, and heavily armed."
--Sheriff Bud Boomer, Canadian Bacon

oldgraygeek

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Got stopped in PA while carrying
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2010, 03:22:15 AM »
Well, my seven year no-ticket streak, which included not being stopped by the police for the entire 5 years I've been carrying concealed, had to end... today.
I was driving a tad too quickly on the PA Turnpike, in a group with a few tractor trailers, when the group suddenly shifted around and braked abruptly but safely. I saw the Police Interceptor just a bit too late, well tucked in to a rest area, and he started rolling before I even passed his hiding place.

So, I got to test all the stuff I wrote in this thread 25 hours ago. I moved to the right and slowed down. He followed me to an area where the shoulder was very wide before he turned on his lights (and I wasn't the only "customer" being "served" in that area). I pulled over and stopped, opened the windows on both sides of the car, shut my engine off, and waited with my hands clamped to the top of the steering wheel.
I was alone in the car. My registration & insurance card were sticking out of the dashboard under the stereo (with copies of my DE & PA permits). My wallet was on the passenger's seat.

He came to the passenger's window. I said, "Good morning, sir."
"Good morning. I am Trooper S________ of the Pennsylvania State Police Highway Patrol. We are recording video and audio of this interaction today. May I see your license, registration, and proof of insurance, please?"
"Yes, sir." I separated the registration & insurance card from the permit copies, and handed them to him without the copies, saying "Here's the registration and insurance. My wallet is right here." I pointed down at it, opened it, and gave him my PA LTCF first, explaining "I should probably hand you this right away," and then I gave him my Delaware driver's license.

He looked at my LTCF, and at my Ford Police Interceptor with microphone clips still screwed to the dashboard, and asked me, "Where do you work?" He clearly thought I was with some police or government agency.
"Uh, nowhere, sir. I fix PCs. I'm a civilian."

"I see. Do you have a weapon on you?"
I replied, "Yes, sir... that's why my hands are clamped to the steering wheel, and all my papers are in plain sight."
"That's helpful, Mr. M___________. Is that your weapon, in the black case?"
"Yes, sir." It was in its Safepacker on my right hip, firmly strapped down under the lap & shoulder belt as well.
He handed my LTCF back in through the window; I returned it to my wallet.
"I stopped you for speeding."
"Yes, sir, I figured that... that's why I pulled over as soon as you started moving."
He went back to his car for five to seven minutes. I sat still, with my hands on top of the wheel.

He came back to the passenger's window again. "Here are your documents back, sir. The radar indicated that your speed was 83 miles per hour in a 65 mile zone, but I cited you for 72 miles per hour, which results in the minimum fine. Here is your citation." It was nicely printed on thermal fax paper, with a coupon to cut off and mail in with payment. "You need to respond to the court within ten days, sir."
I said, "I shall reply immediately. That was kind of you, sir. Thank you."
"Drive safely, Mr. M_____________."
"You too, sir. Thanks again."

Now, I just got done with a 900 mile, fourteen hour drive, so my thoughts may not be at their most profound or even sensible, but these are my initial impressions:
--I should have driven more slowly. (Duh).
--Having all my papers in plain sight, and handing him the LTCF right away to tell him I was carrying, turned out to be a very good plan.
--Keeping my hands on the wheel (and thus away from my gun) also helped a lot.
--The trooper treated me the way we would hope to be treated: he tacitly acknowledged my right to have a weapon by simply asking its location and then paying it no further attention. He didn't call for backup or draw his weapon, both of which might have seemed like reasonable responses. He didn't ask me to get out of the car, or to give him the firearm. (I would have done either, or both, without complaint... but he just let me keep my gun in my holster, possibly because he could see I was not going to to put my hands anywhere near it).

All in all, I wasn't treated like a criminal. I was treated with respect. Of course I'm not glad I got a $129 ticket, but I'm glad I got it from Trooper S_________.
"She's petite, extremely beautiful, and heavily armed."
--Sheriff Bud Boomer, Canadian Bacon

muleman88

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Re: Making good use of our reciprocity
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2010, 11:54:32 AM »
Did he thank you for your donation to the PA budget  :D ;D.  I am glad you were treated with respect , I would think the police ( in general), would not be nervous by a cc holder. After all they have been "checked out" already. Although maybe a little cautious and make sure you are who you say you are.
 Atleast it was only one ticket on such a long trip , I guess it could of been alot worse at those speeds  ;D. Good luck on the rest of your trip.

oldgraygeek

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Re: Making good use of our reciprocity
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2010, 11:36:00 PM »
Did he thank you for your donation to the PA budget  :D ;D.  I am glad you were treated with respect , I would think the police ( in general), would not be nervous by a cc holder. After all they have been "checked out" already. Although maybe a little cautious and make sure you are who you say you are.
 Atleast it was only one ticket on such a long trip , I guess it could of been alot worse at those speeds  ;D. Good luck on the rest of your trip.
I made it to Oklahoma OK, thanks.

I was mostly reformed by yesterday's experience...
"She's petite, extremely beautiful, and heavily armed."
--Sheriff Bud Boomer, Canadian Bacon

Moosie

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Re: Making good use of our reciprocity
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2010, 11:38:07 PM »
Old Gray, really???  hopefully that's not your tachometer displaying 100 and you snapped a picture of it. 

Moosie
"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James Madison, The Federalist Papers)

Southern Kent County Resident

oldgraygeek

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Re: Making good use of our reciprocity
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2010, 11:43:15 PM »
Old Gray, really???  hopefully that's not your tachometer displaying 100 and you snapped a picture of it. 

Moosie

Moosie, I would never do such a thing... and if I did, I would deny it.  ;)
"She's petite, extremely beautiful, and heavily armed."
--Sheriff Bud Boomer, Canadian Bacon

Moosie

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Re: Making good use of our reciprocity
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2010, 11:50:42 PM »
Ok, so if you did take it, I'm flipping you the bird... I would have mistaken you as one of the A-holes I drive past all the time who are doing such crazy things.  LOL  then again at 100, I doubt I'd be driving past you.

If you didnt and you're just "borrowing" someone elses picture, then (patting you on the head), thats a good little driver.  LOL

Moosie
"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James Madison, The Federalist Papers)

Southern Kent County Resident

oldgraygeek

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Re: Making good use of our reciprocity
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2010, 12:42:23 AM »
I almost always keep my speed less than 15 over the limit... when I got my ticket yesterday, I was on the steepest downhill slope on the PA Turnpike, and my cruise control wasn't on.

Besides, in the Facebook era, posting something like that can come back and haunt you.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 12:44:27 AM by oldgraygeek »
"She's petite, extremely beautiful, and heavily armed."
--Sheriff Bud Boomer, Canadian Bacon

muleman88

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Re: Making good use of our reciprocity
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2010, 12:42:45 AM »
100! :o :o my old truck would fall apart at that speed. Im not even sure the diesel would let me go that fast .

Pete D.---

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Re: Making good use of our reciprocity
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2010, 11:43:02 PM »
Quote
Because it makes the policeman's job easier to behave as described in the Ohio law. Specifically, it makes it easier to decide that I am not a threat to his safety, which reduces the threat of my own death or detainment.

This, in turn, makes it easier for the officer(s) to let me keep driving along their highways, knowing I pose no threat to them or their brethren in uniform.

Nice job Old Gray- I like your style! and, btw, that was a pricey ticket! And, at least you didn't get stopped in Jersey with the nug in the trunk! Who knows how that would have ended! Take care, Pete D.---
"This food fights back!" Myke Hawke Peirce